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Subject: TML Bundle #279: Msgs 3391-3410
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TML Bundles come from the archives of the Traveller Mailing List,
maintained by James Perkins, traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon Jan 13 09:18:48 PST 1992
From: traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com (TML Administrator)
Subject: TML Bundle #279: Table of Contents

-AMN- --Date--- --Sender--------- --Subject-----------------------------------
3391  29-Dec-91 Hans Rancke-Madse Re: Ancient sites << Mike Metlay writes: > An
3392  30-Dec-91 Cynthia Higginbot Red Zones << A related question to the Ancien
3393  31-Dec-91 Hans Rancke-Madse Re: The best thing about Traveller << Bertil 
3394  30-Dec-91 PPUGLIESE@PimaCC. Misc. requests & comments << After looking th
3395  30-Dec-91 traveller-request TML Msg 3395 lost << This message has been ir
3396  30-Dec-91 traveller-request TML Msg 3396 lost << This message has been ir
3397  31-Dec-91 rwmira01@vlsi.ct. Re: (3392) Red Zones << Most of the RED zones
3398  27-Dec-91 George William He GDW hasn't responded yet... << [This was sent
3399  02-Jan-92 bonnevil@acc.stol Bugs -- Trojan Reach (not really) << Now that
3400  02-Jan-92 bonnevil@acc.stol Paranoia Press Redux??? << Just when you thou
3401  02-Jan-92 Robert S. Dean    Shipping Volumes << Hans Rancke commented on 
3402  03-Jan-92 Chris Olson       Need post-script subsector mapping program...
3403  04-Jan-92 Joe Block         digest burster << Hello, all. Sorry to post t
3404  04-Jan-92 d9bertil@dtek.cha Hard Bugs << Time for the bugreport on Hard T
3405  04-Jan-92 Scott A Hicks     Computers & Computer Programs << Hello, This 
3406  04-Jan-92 Hans Rancke-Madse Re: Beyond and Vanguard Reaches << From: bonn
3407  04-Jan-92 Hans Rancke-Madse Re: Trojan Reach info << From: bonnevil@acc.s
3408  05-Jan-92 Hans Rancke-Madse Terra during the Long Night << Concerning Ber
3409  03-Jan-92 Derek Wildstar    WILDSTAR is back with Economic Stats! << Hi, 
3410  05-Jan-92 KELLOGG@ducvax.au The Lost Sheep Returns! << Hi Fans! Well, the

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3391
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Ancient sites
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 91 20:52:06 MET

Mike Metlay writes:

> Andor and Candory have [Ancient sites] -- one or the other
> was the Droyne home world.

Is this inside information? As far as I recall Andor is merely
the prime candidate for Droyne homeworld. Nobody knows for sure.
The pattern of Ancient sites indicate a center "somewhere in
The Spinward Marches or Trojan Reach", but for all we know it
may be Shionty. Note that Andor falls outside the ideal Droyne
planet profile of size 4, atmosphere 8, hydrographics 4 found
on the Tirem rosette worlds. (I can't remember Candory's UPP,
but it has a lower population than Andor and a type 6 government
(captive government), so I assume that Candory was colonized
from Andor).
I don't recall any explicit mentions of Ancient sites on Andor
either (though I wouldn't be surprised if there were some there).

As an aside, here is the my (very unofficial) library data entry
for Andor:

- -------------8X-----------------------------------------------------

ANDOR (Spinward Marches 0236 C695735-9): Medium-sized imperial
planet with dense tainted atmosphere, 46% sea, high population,
self-perpertuating oligarchial rule, moderate law and early
stellar technology.
   Andor is inhabited by DROYNE. It was contacted briefly by scouts
during the First Survey. The inhabitants proved to have had jump
technology for several thousand years and had at one time explored a
number of planets in the surrounding area, but had not established
any permanent colonies anywhere, except on the neighboring world of
CANDORY, presumably because of the astrographical isolation of the
two star-systems (the next closest system being three parsecs away)
which makes contact using only jump-1 ships difficult and costly.
   The planet was placed under interdict by the Scouts in 602 for
[restricted reasons]. A treaty signed in 658, admitting Andor and
Candory to the Imperium, makes the inhabitants full citizens,
however, giving them, among other things, the ordinary 'right to
travel' (see IMPERIAL CONSTITUTION), which means that in spite
of the interdict the inhabitants of the two planets can come and
go freely. [Last update 325-734].

- -------------8X-----------------------------------------------------

Notes: Words in capitals are references to other entries, some
of which, however, hasen't been written yet. I haven't worked
out the Imperial Constitution for example. I wanted to explain
the Free Trader from Andor, an interdicted planet, mentioned in
Book 8, _Merchants_. My explanation is that Imperial citizens
have the right to travel to any non-interdicted world. We know
from what we've been told about Shionty that the Imperium allows
inhabitants of an interdicted world to stay on it even after the
interdict. Propably that is because they have a constitutional
right to stay there ("The Imperium shall make no laws requiring
the residents of any planet to leave..."). Of course it dosen't
necessarily follow that someone from an interdicted world will
be let back in once he's left, but I decided from the existence
of the droyne Free Trader from Andor that such was the case.

Note that non-citizens from interdicted worlds propably _dosen't_
have the right to come and go (Algine). Furthermore some kinds
of interdictions (like quarantines) may suspend even a citizen's
right to travel.

I haven't decided on what that restricted reason for the
Interdict is, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was because of
the presense of one or more Ancient sites. The Imperium cannot
explore them without permission from the droyne (not easily
obtained as anybody who've read about the droyne will know) and
they daren't risk anybody else (like the zhodani) getting in there
ahead of them.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
  "Free speech gives a man the right to talk about the
'psycology' of an amoeba, but I don't have to listen".
                  Elihu Nivens in 'The Puppet Masters'

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3392
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 91 07:22:21 CST
From: Cynthia_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US (Cynthia Higginbotham)
Subject: Red Zones

    A related question to the Ancient sites question: Can anyone or all of
you
provide a quick rundown (or detailed decription, if you like) as to why
the various Red Zones in the Marches are interdicted?  I believe several of

them have been mention over the years (Your cue, metlay) in the Journal and
other sources.  
   BTW, the Victoria scenario is NOT in Best of the Journal #1 -- I have 
BotJ#1 and I am still wondering about Victoria, since the Annic Nova
(now that was a neat ship) scenario refers you to the Victoria scenario if
you want further info on Victoria...  I have *most* of the Journals back to

3 or 4, or so, but not #1. 

                                  --- Cynthia

- -- Via DLG Pro v0.985b

cynthia_higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3393
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: The best thing about Traveller
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 91 1:31:55 MET

Bertil writes:

>[I write:]
>>[He writes:]
>>>internal consistency went down over time (IMHO, it started with
>>>MegaTraveller).
>>
>>Not quite. There were a number of early Traveller ideas that were later
>>changed retroactively. One example is the scale of Imperial warships
>>that I've mentioned before.
>
>  I am under the impression that there were a period of a few years, in
>gameterms(*) just before and after the 5th FW, when the universe were stable
>and established. I can write off any inconsistencies before that as
>'childhood problems' for the game.

I still say, not quite. The fleet tonnage rose to reflect the
billions and billions of people in the universe, but GDW
failed to realize that this would apply to civilian shipping
too. The starports continued to accomodate mere scores of
ships, and the major shipping line in Aramis Subsector still
piddled around with a paltry 100.000 tons worth of ships. You
had mighty 100.000 tons warships protecting mighthy 5000 tons
freighters from deadly 400 tons corsairs. Tourists travelled
between planets with population level A in scores instead of
millions and the encounter tables let you meet several other
ships each week regardless of the of the population size of the
system you were in. No, I was forgetting: In MegaTraveller you'd
add 1 to the encounter table if the system had population A...

Of course, the problem with making civilian shipping realistic
is that player characters drown in the crowd. They'd have the
same chance of getting a cargo for their 200 T Free Trader that
you and I have of getting a cargo for the family car. Pirates
(in their 20.000 T Corsairs) would laugh themselves silly at
the thought of wasting time on capturing them.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
"I used to argue the matter at first, but I'm wiser now. Facts
are stubborn things, but not half so stubborn as fallacies."
                - Stella Maynard in "Anne of the Island"

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3394
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 91 23:57 MST
From: PPUGLIESE@PimaCC.Pima.edu
Subject: Misc. requests & comments

After looking thru _Annic_Nova_ from Double Adv. 1 & the description of
Victoria/Lanth/Spin. Marches, I've become curious as to whether or not
there was ever explanation as to how the Victorian crew that was found
dead on the Annic Nova came to acquire such a vessel. I had thought that
maybe the Victorians were transplanted by the Ancients & so had access to
some "secrets" but JTAS#2 (which covers Victoria) states that they came
there in sub-light craft like colonists did in Trillion Credit Squad.
Does anyone have any info to contribute?

Also, does anyone know where I can get old issues of the JTAS? I have only
issues 2,3,8-10,12-17. I understand they went up to #24 before Challenge
started. Any info will be much appreciated.

Finally, I'd have to say that right now it looks to me as if I'm going to
pretty much reject the 'Space Viking' theme of the new Traveller version.
_Hard_Times_ has finally given me the path onto the road to recovery that
I've been waiting for ever since this rebellion nonsense (IMHO) started.
It seems to be terribly perverse to me to then chop everything right back
down with this virus garbage just as it looks like things are getting 
better. GDW will just have to chalk me up as one long-time & very loyal
(I even bought COACC & Fighting Sh*ts!) customer that will be lost for all
intents & purposes.

PHIL

ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3395
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 91 23:57 MST
From: traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com
Subject: TML Msg 3395 lost

This message has been irretrievably lost

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3396
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 91 23:57 MST
From: traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com
Subject: TML Msg 3396 lost

This message has been irretrievably lost

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3397
Subject: Re: (3392) Red Zones
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 91 13:27:17 -0500
From: rwmira01@vlsi.ct.louisville.edu

Most of the RED zones are interdicted because of the Traveller equivilant of
"The Prime Directive".  If the world has a Starport of X and has a population,
it will be a Red Zone.  Even if the population is 0, then it can be interdicted
because of evolving life.  Other Red Zones I have seen include navigational
hazards (Adventure 1, Kinur - Shinothy) and planets that have been Nuked or 
have some other deadly hazard.

In the later cases, it is up to the Game Master to determine.  The first 
criteria is an automatic.  

Rob

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3398
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 91 22:21:33 -0800
From: George William Herbert <gwh@ocf.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: GDW hasn't responded yet...

[This was sent to traveller@dadla.wr.tek.com.  I resent it to
traveller@metolius.wr.tek.com -- James]


	Three weeks ago, as the tide of the Star VIking debate here and
genie was beginning to arrive in full force, I mailed Loren Wiseman a
bunch of my stuff that was in progress (as writing samples), and an offer
to help with the Star Viking project.  I haven't heard anything yet, so I
suspect that they're busy right now.  Doing what, I don't know, but they
usually have a much better response time than that. 8-)

- -george

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3399
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 92 15:43:18 -0600
From: bonnevil@acc.stolaf.edu
Subject: Bugs -- Trojan Reach (not really)


Now that I'm back and trying to catch up on my mail....

On 27 Dec, Hans Rancke-Madsen noted that the UWP data for Pax Rulen and Egyrn
subsectors in the classic adventure _Leviathan_ didn't seem to match published
data.  I used to operate a campaign in Egyrn, and the data doesn't seem to be
any different between the DGP Digest issue and _Leviathan_.  However, the "old"
sector data on sunbane seemed to be bad, as I recall, where some worlds didn't
even match positions.  I think the "new" sector files fixed this.

- --Steve

PS   Interesting thread of discussion.  Who wrote Leviathan anyway?  It had a
     British feel in the writing ("maneover" drives, etc.).  Shows that it was
     a transitional period for Traveller -- remember the "jump message torps"?

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3400
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 92 15:58:53 -0600
From: bonnevil@acc.stolaf.edu
Subject: Paranoia Press Redux???


Just when you thought it was safe to go in the Vanguard Reaches --

I was looking at my brand-spankin'-new copy of Solomani&Ftierle (Aslan? what
Aslan?) over break, when something on the Hierate map caught my eye.  DGP
apparently is salvaging some remnants from the old PP work!  Look for these
governments:  Eslyat (formerly located on Beyond/VG border), Zhodani colonies
(same locale, formerly various "Adminstrative Districts"), Federation of
Garonne (formerly a single world in VG, now in Beyond), Duchy of Treyln
(formerly "Trelyn Domain") and the Murians (new location).

On comparison to the old supplement however, it seems that the star positions
were changed, as well as the density in parts of the sectors.  Interesting.
So PP's stuff is no longer any good (a mantra often repeated here) but hasn't
been completely lost.  I really am going to miss DGP's good work in trying to
reconcile old contradictions....

- --Steve

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3401
Date:     Thu, 2 Jan 92 22:34:18 EST
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Shipping Volumes

Hans Rancke commented on the failure of Traveller to keep up with the growth
of the universe as envisioned with respect to quantities of merchant shipping
earlier this week.  Others (the Higginbothams and myself among them) have
also commented on this in the past.

(This may ramble...it's late and I'm tired---Scott Kellogg was by for dinner
tonight on his way back to Alabama).  While talking with Scott about this, I
realized that I had been overlooking a resource on my shelf for a long time:
The Encyclopedia Britannica World Data Annual (1989 in this case).  There
is a summary set of tables on a variety of topics, including Transportation.
Under transportation there is a section for sea cargo tonnage loaded and off-
loaded.  Since this is the '89 book, I assume these figures are from somewhere
between '85 and '89.  TAking three examples (China, U.S., and Bangladesh, which
are Traveller populations 9,8, and 7 respectively) we find the following 
numbers:

China 71,000,000 metric tons imported (exports less)
U.S. 425,000,000 metric tons imported (exports less)
Bangladesh 7,500,000 metric tons imported (exports less)

I took the large of the two numbers, since it would put the upper limit on the
number of ships required.  Assume the U.S. to be roughly analogous to an
'industrial' planet for sake of argument.  Applying the standard Trav
density fudge factor of 1 ton / cubic meter, we find that 425,000,000 tons
works out to be about 31.5 million displacement tons of cargo arriving per
year.  If this was all carried in bulk freighters with 20,000 tons of useful
cargo space, this would amount to 1574 arrivals per year, or 4.3 per day.
If all of these ships made one jump per two weeks (standard Trav assumption),
and shuttled between 'U.S.' and planets one jump away, a fleet of 121 bulk
freighters could handle all of the traffic.  Now, if you assume that _all_
of the traffic was being carried in 400 ton Type Rs with 200 tons of useful
space, those numbers would be 100 times higher, and 12,000 Type Rs would be
needed.  You can see how you would go about figuring things with the 
assumptions about round trip voyage time, cargo tonnage and so forth changed,
right?

Bangladesh (free trader territory!! hehehehe) would require about 18 Type A
arrivals per day to carry all of its traffic, so the port would have about
126 ships on the ground at any given time.  

Let's see, other assumptions unstated:  these numbers are for tonnage by sea
only as there is no usable data on international rail and road traffic.
International air traffic is given in ton-miles (or metric ton-kilometers),
which means you need to make some guesses about trip length to calculate number
of cargo aircraft departures.  Probably not significant in terms of total
volume.  On the other hand, it would mostly consist of high value cargo and
might provide a different sort of estimate.

Anyway, with these sorts of real world figures available, we should be able
to come up with something that will allow us to make a reasonable guess about
ports and ships.

It's tired and I'm late...enough for now...

Rob Dean




------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3402
From: metolius.WR.TEK.COM!uunet!imd.sterling.com!Chris.Olson@sequent.UUCP (Chris Olson)
Subject: Need post-script subsector mapping program...
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 92 11:42:41 CST

[This message was send to traveller@dadla.wr.tek.com by mistake.  I
forwarded it to traveller@metolius.wr.tek.com -- James]

Or, pointer to a site where I could get it.

   Since Eklektik is down, I don't know where to look. :-(

(or some kind soul could just mail it to me :-)

chris (chris@ssbell.imd.sterling.com)
- -- 

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3403
From: jpb@umbio.med.miami.edu (Joe Block)
Subject: digest burster
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 92 2:27:46 EST

Hello, all.

Sorry to post this non traveller request, but I recall seeing a digest burster
shell script get posted here a few months back.  Now that gnu emacs is no
longer available on my site, I have to use elm to read mail, and that burster
would come in awfully handy, if anyone still has it.

Incoherently,

Joe Block (jpb@umbio.med.miami.edu)
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
 deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
                                        Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3404
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Hard Bugs
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 92 9:29:49 MET

  Time for the bugreport on Hard Times:
  Aside from the cover (laser bolts caught in mid-air... riiiight.) I've so far
only found one bug, and that is that the map on page 17 has Outlands and
Wilds switched in the legend. Outlands should be raster-grey and Wilds dotted,
not the opposite. This can be confirmed by comparing Diaspora/D and H on the map
with the data on page 96.

   One other comment on it is that the high estimates on interstellar trade 
volume apparently are the correct ones. Otherwise no worlds would be stricken 
so hard by the loss of commerce as they apparently are, and no worlds would
be so dependent on trade that they would fail without it, as some apparently
do.

  I also doubt that it would be business like usual in the regions bordering 
the Imperium while it is going through 'Twilight:1128'. I'd expect the fallout
to be bigger in the Imperiums neighbours, but this is almost totally absent.

- -bertil-
- -- 
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3405
From: sh@ecn.purdue.edu (Scott A Hicks)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1992 11:58:52 EST
Subject: Computers & Computer Programs


Hello,
	This is my first venture onto the Traveller Mailing List so if this
question has already come up please bear with me.  

	I may be blind but I cannot find the information in the MT books that 
states the capabilities of computers (ie. memory / cpu size, etc...).  Nor 
can I find any information on available computer programs, such as PREDICT,
NAV, that were from the earlier books.  If anybody could either point me at 
the proper place to look or just mail me the information I would be very
greatful, as my group finaly got a ship last night and they wanted to buy
some new programs for it.

Thanks in advance,
Scott Hicks

sh@ecn.purdue.edu

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3406
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Beyond and Vanguard Reaches
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 92 21:51:36 MET

From: bonnevil@acc.stolaf.edu

>Just when you thought it was safe to go in the Vanguard Reaches --
>
>I was looking at my brand-spankin'-new copy of Solomani&Ftierle (Aslan? what
>Aslan?) over break, when something on the Hierate map caught my eye.  DGP
>apparently is salvaging some remnants from the old PP work!  Look for these
>governments:  Eslyat (formerly located on Beyond/VG border), Zhodani colonies
>(same locale, formerly various "Adminstrative Districts"), Federation of
>Garonne (formerly a single world in VG, now in Beyond), Duchy of Treyln
>(formerly "Trelyn Domain") and the Murians (new location).

Oh rats! For the last six months I've been working on The
Weltbund, a small interstellar state in the Foreven and Beyond
Sectors. In that connection I've revised the political map of
Beyond considerably. Typical! Two years ago I gave up trying to
get information about Trojan Reach and made up my own whereupon
DGP promptly published the data in Traveller's Digest. Sigh!



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
"I know there are some people in the world who do not tolerate their
fellow human beings, and I just can't _stand_ people like that!"
                                (after Tom Lehrer)

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3407
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Trojan Reach info
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 92 22:05:19 MET

From: bonnevil@acc.stolaf.edu
>Subject: (3399) Bugs -- Trojan Reach (not really)
>
>
>Now that I'm back and trying to catch up on my mail....
>
>On 27 Dec, Hans Rancke-Madsen noted that the UWP data for Pax Rulin and Egyrn
>subsectors in the classic adventure _Leviathan_ didn't seem to match
>published data. I used to operate a campaign in Egyrn, and the data doesn't
>seem to be any different between the DGP Digest issue and _Leviathan_.
>However, the "old" sector data on sunbane seemed to be bad, as I recall,
>where some worlds 't even match positions. I think the "new" sector files
>fixed this.

Yes, I was going by the sunbane data which I got a few months
before the Digest issue in question. Since I had made up my own
data for the top half of the sector anyway, I never used the
sunbane data nor bothered to check the Digest data. I'm glad to
hear that it was corrected. Mind you, I'm not surprised that
GDW got it wrong and DGP got it right.

>PS  Interesting thread of discussion. Who wrote Leviathan anyway? It
>had a British feel in the writing ("maneover" drives, etc.). Shows that
>it was a transitional period for Traveller -- remember the "jump message
>torps"?

Yep. Perhaps one could allow smaller than 100 T starships, but
retain the minimum size of one jump unit for a jump engine.
That way you could have a 16 2/3 T message torpedo capable of
jump-6 (or could you? I haven't the Referee's Guide with me, so
I can't check the numbers). How much fuel would it need? Could
it manage two jumps if it had nothing but a computer and a
power plant aboard? (Hmmm... a snag: It would need a type 6
computer, wouldn't it?).


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
"I know there are some people in the world who do not tolerate their
fellow human beings, and I just can't _stand_ people like that!"
                                (after Tom Lehrer)

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3408
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Terra during the Long Night
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 92 5:16:52 MET

Concerning Bertil Jonell's observation that Terra seems to have
been put on hold for 1800 years or more (vitness the unchanged
names of countries shown in Traveller's Digest #14), I think
that this may very well be explained.

The key lies in the centuries of the Interstellar Wars where
Terra and it's colonies were locked in a struggle with the
Vilani Empire, a potentially overwhelming enemy. Terra fought
this conflict under the auspices of a world government whose
combined forces would be too strong for any individual former
country to challenge. Any nationalists would therefor have to
resort to terrorism or possibly guerilla action. This combined
with a "you traitorous scum are hampering our struggle against
the evil Vilani Empire, jeopadizing the future of the entire
human race" line of propaganda could well relegate nationalism
to the same popularity as nazism and racism.

Thus any struggles between the haves and the have-nots during
the Long Night would be in the nature of either replacing the
haves with new ones or at least forcing them to disgorge a bit.
But the concept of one region cutting out and going it alone
would be anathema to everybody, haves and have-nots alike. And
thus the political boundaries of Terra could remain unchanged
through 1800 years and more.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
"I know there are some people in the world who do not tolerate their
fellow human beings, and I just can't _stand_ people like that!"
                                (after Tom Lehrer)

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3409
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 92 23:52:49 EST
From: uunet!popeet!wildstar@sequent.UUCP (Derek Wildstar)
Subject: WILDSTAR is back with Economic Stats!


Hi, folks!  Just when I went away for a while, everything breaks loose!  Oh,
well: I've adopted a "wait and see" attitude toward NeoTraveller.  I have
managed to get my hands on Hard Times and Solomani/Aslan: Both look great!
Over the last while, I've been misusing the mainframe at work to do a little
serious number crunching for me.  The results are below.

Several people have posted items about commerce, or the amount thereof, in
the Imperium.  Since I have just finished loading the entire Imperium and
surrounds (from the DGP data files) into a SAS (Statistical Analysis
System) dataset, I thought that might be instructive to look at the problem
from a different point of view.

Using the worlds coded for Imperial or Imperial Faction allegance, the
following statistics for the Imperium of Pre-Rebellion or very early in
the Rebellion.  The "new", rebellion-era statistics were loaded into a
database and tabulated.  The Gross Planetary Product and Taxation rules
from Striker were used to compute the GPP in Local Credits.  The Striker
exchange table was used to convert these to Imperial Standard (Port-A,
TL-15) Credits, which were then taxed at the suggested rates.  Rules from
Trillion Credit Squadron were used to compute the shipyard capacity of
each Class A and B Starport.  The Trillion Credit Squadron construction
rules were also used to estimate the number and size of ships.  The Imperial 
Budget is entirely my own invention; as is the number of starships at each
tonnage class, and the trade between the various classes of starports.

The Third Imperium is a trade protectorate encompassing 10,497 systems
with a total population of about 16,731,817,153,000 sophonts.  The annual 
Gross Imperial Product is 219,474,958,700,000,000 Credits.  This is the 
total value of all of the goods and services produced on all the member 
worlds of the Imperium in one year, adjusted to Imperial Standard Credits.
The Imperium imposes a tax burden of about 1% of the GIP, producing Imperial 
revenues of about 2,194,749,587,000,000 Imperial Standard Credits per year.

The table below shows the major categories of Imperial expenditures, and the
amounts spent on them.  Note that the Imperial family recieves its income
in the form of dividends paid to the Throne (the Imperial family holds
shares in a number of megacorporations, and many lesser companies).  The
Imperial bureaucracy is supported by user fees (application, liscencing,
processing, and other fees paid for official services rendered).  Some
of these services actually produce a profit; others are subsidized by
the Imperium (for example, the XBoat network operates at a loss, but it is
subsidized through the IISS budget).  Much of these funds fall into the
"Other Expenditures" category.  The "Naval Estimates" and "Army Estimates" 
are, for historical reasons, the terms for the Navy and Army budgets.

Category           Percent   Budget (MCr)
- -----------------------------------------
Naval Estimates      51.20  1,123,711,789
Army Estimates       16.05    352,257,309
Scout Service        21.31    467,701,137
Other Expenditures   11.44    251,079,352
- ----------------------------------------- 
ALL                 100.00  2,194,749,587

The shipyards of the Imperium's Class A starports have an aggregate capacity
(all tech levels) of 5,098,672,838 displacement tons for vessel construction.
Its Class B ports have an additional capacity 4,367,049,593 displacement tons
for the repair and annual maintainance of starships.  The table below shows
the tech level breakdown for the Imperium's Class A and B starports.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------
TL  ClassA  ClassB      BuildTons      MaintTons  Build%  Maint%
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
4        0       3              0        117,600    0.00    0.00
5        0       8              0      1,055,652    0.00    0.02
6        2      43         82,000      4,944,480    0.00    0.11
7        4      89      3,763,899     10,738,080    0.07    0.25
8       23     196     15,853,016     40,124,708    0.31    0.92
9       56     308     11,689,867    104,965,363    0.23    2.40
A      135     427     26,558,910    137,957,429    0.52    3.16
B      158     518     87,529,595    420,700,561    1.72    9.63
C      238     579    300,827,072    671,936,269    5.90   15.39
D      244     484    540,769,684    525,260,647   10.61   12.03
E      388     455  1,254,523,697    857,493,892   24.60   19.64
F      485     251  2,163,360,932  1,271,804,383   42.43   29.12
G       55      21    693,714,164    319,950,528   13.61    7.33
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
ALL  1,788   3,382  5,098,672,838  4,367,049,593  100.00  100.00

These figures can be used to estimate the approximate volume of shipping
within the Imperium.  A 10,000 displacement ton hull will be used as an
"average" to estimate construction times.  A hull occupies its tonnage
in the shipyard for its entire construction time of 160 weeks.  Ships
must also undergo annual maintainance; 2 weeks every year.  The yards of
the Imperium have an annual capacity of 265,130,980,000 ton-weeks of new 
construction or maintainance, and an additional 227,086,570,000 ton-weeks 
of maintainance only.  Presumably, the Naval Bases, Naval Depots, Scout 
Bases, and Scout Waystations contain additional ship construction and repair 
facilities to build and maintain ships for the Imperial military services 
(this is a logical extension of the policy that a world's survey data does 
not include the personnel or technology of any military bases present).

In peacetime, shipyards and ships presumably exist in an equilibrum: the
number of new ships constructed is the same as the number retired from
service; and all ships in service can recieve their annual maintainance.
In practice, there is always some spare shipyard capacity to provide for
regional differences, trade expansion, and so on.  Let us assume this
spare capacity at 10%.  The active lifetime of a ship must be at least as
long, and probably longer than, the period over which it is financed, 40 
years.  There is good reason (analysis of the Azhanti High Lightning
class cruisers, the only class of ships for which complete records are
available) to believe that the active life can be more than 100 years.
Let us assume that it is 80 years (exactly twice the pay-off time).

Computation:
X = total tonnage in service
X/80 = annual tonnage taken out of service = annual new construction
160*(X/80) = 2*X = shipyard capacity required for new construction
2*X <= 0.90 * 265,130,980,000 (available new construction capacity) - OK!
2*X = shipyard capacity required for annual maintainance
4*X = 0.90 * (265,130,980,000 + 227,086,570,000)
X = 110,748,950,000 displacement tons.

Let:
T = New Ship Construction Time in Weeks
L = Lifetime of Ship, in Years
U = Shipyard Utilization Factor
N = Ton-Weeks of Shipyard Capacity for New Construction
M = Ton-Weeks of Shipyard Capacity for Maintainance
X = Aggregate Tonnage of In-Service Shipping

Therefore:
X = (U * (N+M)) / (2 + T/L)

But:
X <= (U*N) / (T/L)

Interestingly enough, a 5,000 ton ship requires only 144 weeks to complete.
Therefore, 11 5,000 ton ships can be constructed for slightly less shipyard 
capacity as 5 10,000 ton ships.  From a construction point of view, smaller 
ships are more efficient than larger ones.  However, when carrying cargo or 
passengers, larger ships tend to be more efficient. A balance must be 
struck, and 10,000 tons was chosen rather arbitrarily.  The table below
presents a mix of ship sizes; the ratio column indicates how many ships of
a given size can be constructed using the same amount of shipyard ton-weeks.
For the purposes of estimating the number of ships, I will assume (again
rather arbitrarily) that a mixture of ships will be built so that every
10,000 tons of shipping represents an average of 1.6 ships; the Number
column shows how the shipping is distributed to get this total.

- -----------------------------------------------------
     Hull  Weeks     Ratio  Number  %Occur      Total
- -----------------------------------------------------
      100     40  400.0000       2   6.25   1,107,490
      200     48  166.6667       4  12.50   2,214,979
      400     64   62.5000       3   9.38   1,662,120
      800    112   17.8571       4  12.50   2,214,979
    1,000    120   13.3333       6  18.75   3,322,469
    5,000    144    2.2222       2   6.25   1,107,490
   10,000    160    1.0000       8  25.00   4,429,958
   20,000    174    0.4598       2   6.25   1,107,490
   50,000    192    0.1667       1   3.13     554,631
  100,000    208    0.0769       0   0.00           0
  200,000    224    0.0357       0   0.00           0
  500,000    232    0.0138       0   0.00           0
1,000,000    240    0.0067       0   0.00           0
- -----------------------------------------------------

Presumably, Class A starports are also primary trade and commerce locations, 
so that most traffic passes through them.  Class B ports would be 
responsible for less of the trade, and so on down through Class E (slim) 
and X (none).  Worlds on a shipping main may receive through traffic, even
if the mainworld is bypassed.  The following table presents a possible 
breakdown.  The ships column indicates the number of arrivals and departures 
(flight operations) per week; less than half this number will be in port at 
any one time.

- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Class  Number  %Trade        TonsTrade    TonsEach  Ships    1Every
- -------------------------------------------------------------------
A       1,788   44.00   48,729,539,000  27,253,657  4,361   2.3 Min
B       3,382   35.00   38,762,133,000  11,461,305  1,834   5.5 Min
C       2,768   15.00   16,612,342,000   6,001,569    960  10.5 Min
D       1,079    3.99    4,418,883,205   4,095,351    655  15.4 Min
E       1,252    2.00    2,214,979,050   1,769,153    283  35.6 Min
X         228    0.01       11,074,895      48,574      8  21.6 Hrs
- -------------------------------------------------------------------
ALL    10,497  100.00  110,748,950,000

It is interesting to note that there are 17,719,832 starships registered
in the Imperium; approximately 1,688 for every world.  The frequency of
flight operations at a Class A port is more hectic than the busiest of
present-day airports.  For a commercial starship, between 40% and 60% of
the ship's volume will be cargo or passengers; therefore a Class A starport
handles about 13.6 million tons of cargo a week.  This is quite a large
volume of trade, but not enough to feed a planet of billions.

Also note that the above tables are averages over the whole Imperium; not
every Class D port has a ship arriving every half hour.  Some facilities will
go for up to a day without seeing a vessel, but others will have departures
every few minutes.  A better picture could be had by examining a single
sector or subsector.

Let me know what you think ...

Wildstar

You want to take good care of your star, otherwise it gets all dark and icky.
/

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3410
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1992 17:56 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: The Lost Sheep Returns!

Hi Fans!

Well, the assignment is overwith.  I got the missile plans off to Rob Dean,
The (former) KGB team (Who knows what their alliegence is now?) has no
further interest in me so I guess I am safe for the time being.

Thanks for the offer, but I'm afraid that the actions of a Merc Division
would only stir them up again.  Besides, I can take care of myself just fine.
As to a certain nosey news taper...  Well, sorry Mark, but the full story of
my disappearance has been classified.

I mentioned the little incident with the JA-37 Viggen.  A sweet little plane!
But I'm afraid I had a bit of trouble with it.  Sure I use the metric system
on the ground, but in the air, it is a bit more difficult to think in split
second decisions.

The ejection system is a good one.  I give my personal endorsement on that
one, though my shoulder still hurts.  I'm just glad I had the time to blow
the canopy off first, I wouldn't want to have to go through it, despite the
net of charges to blow a hole in it prior to egress.

CraftID:	Saab JA-37 Viggen (Thunderbolt) TL8, Cr 5,118,710
Hull:		(44/110) Disp=49, SupersonicSTOL, Unload=7.45, Load=17
Power:		(4/10) GasTurb=.6MW, Dur=1 hr 50min,(Internal)
Loco:		HPerfTurbFan=23.5, (w/afterburner 33.5) Min=140, Agility=6
		Clean:		Cruise=1605, Top=2140, AB=2800
		Loaded:		Cruise=1075, Top=1433, AB=1860
		Standard Load:	Cruise=1281, Top=1708, AB=2291
Comm:		Radio=Cont*1, Reg*2
Sensors:	AW-Radar=VDist,(Pulse Doppler), RadarDirectionFinder,
		Passive IR
Off:		30mm AutoCan w/150 rnds
		Plumbed Fusilage HPoint=1	(2000Kg)
		Fusilage HPoints=2		(500Kg)
		Inboard Wing HPoint=2		(1000Kg)
		Outboard Wing HPoint=2		(500Kg)
Control:	Fly-By-Wire, MP=4, Computer=2/bis, HUD
Accom:		Crew=1, Complex Cockpit w/ AdvEjection Seat,
		Basic Env, Basic LS, Oxygen Tank & Mask
Other:		Fuel=3422Liter internal, Max external load=6tons
Standard Load:	2 IR seekers, (Sidewinder)
		2 Semiactive Homers, (Sky Flash)
		1 2000 Kg Drop Tank (adds 1 hr 2 min to duration)
		1 Jammer Pod
		1 Flare/Chaff Pod
The 30mm is present only on the interceptor variant, the ground attack,
reconaisance, and naval variants do not have one.
There is a 2 seat trainer variant, but the above design should suffice for
The other variants.

Nice plane!  Quick!  I like being able to take off from a highway!
But Watch out for that low fuel light!  It got me, don't let it get you!

I am not allowed to say any more.

Scott Kellogg
Number 6

PS.  James, would you please put me back on the TML listings.  Also, when you
get around to it can you send me the back issues of what I missed?  The last
bit I got was archive message number 3291 in Volume 30 #6.  Thanks alot!

PPS.  Rob, I hope those missile plans were worth it considering the cost...

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
*****************

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TML Bundles come from the archives of the Traveller Mailing List,
maintained by James Perkins, traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon Jan 13 09:19:02 PST 1992
From: traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com (TML Administrator)
Subject: TML Bundle #280: Table of Contents

-AMN- --Date--- --Sender--------- --Subject-----------------------------------
3411  06-Jan-92 d9bertil@dtek.cha Re: Terra during the Long Night << > From: Ha
3412  06-Jan-92 James T Perkins   Re: (3405) Computers & Computer Programs << S
3413  07-Jan-92 Hans Rancke-Madse Re: Terra during the Long Night << From: d9be
3414  07-Jan-92 d9bertil@dtek.cha Hard Times on Earth << I'll begin with a 'bug
3415  07-Jan-92 Steven Bonneville Re: (3409) Imperial Economics << The message 
3416  07-Jan-92 Travis McCord     Postscript MapmakerProgram << Ask & ye shall 
3417  08-Jan-92 d9bertil@dtek.cha Re: Terra during the Long Night << > From: Ha
3418  08-Jan-92 Steve Higginbotha more MT commerce << I notice that someone els
3419  08-Jan-92 Hans Rancke-Madse Hard Times on Terra (Not really) << First a n
3420  08-Jan-92 William Henry Tim A note on coins and values << Anyone here eve
3421  08-Jan-92 Robert S. Dean    More Number crunching << Could someone out th
3422  08-Jan-92 Robert S. Dean    Ramblings << Wildstar's number crunching look
3423  09-Jan-92 Joe Block         Starport traffic << The recent discussion of 
3424  09-Jan-92 d9bertil@dtek.cha Re: Ramblings << > From: Robert S. Dean <rsde
3425  09-Jan-92 d9bertil@dtek.cha Re: Hard Times on Terra << > From: Hans Ranck
3426  09-Jan-92 d9bertil@dtek.cha Rats, Cats & Bugs << When I look at the 'dot 

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3411
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re: Terra during the Long Night
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 92 15:59:52 MET

> From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
> Subject: (3408) Terra during the Long Night
> 
> The key lies in the centuries of the Interstellar Wars where
> Terra and it's colonies were locked in a struggle with the
> Vilani Empire, a potentially overwhelming enemy. Terra fought
> this conflict under the auspices of a world government whose
> combined forces would be too strong for any individual former
> country to challenge. Any nationalists would therefor have to
> resort to terrorism or possibly guerilla action. This combined
> with a "you traitorous scum are hampering our struggle against
> the evil Vilani Empire, jeopadizing the future of the entire
> human race" line of propaganda could well relegate nationalism
> to the same popularity as nazism and racism.

  But the history of the Rule of Man could disrupt this: The war was over.
It was won. And then the newly aquired colonies almost the entire military
of the victorious part says: "We're a new political entity. Bye bye!"
  Imagine MacArthur establishing himself as military dictator of the West 
Pacific Alliance including Japan, Hawaii and all the territory inbetween 
including all US forces there and setting out as a totally independent
political entity that regards the continental US as 'little brother':)
  My guess as to a possible reaction on Terra when the Rule of Man cut and run 
is great disillutionment with all traces of interstellar government since they
have shown themselves to be either hostile or indifferent. I don't think that
the wartime 'we must stick together' mentality could survive long after the 
threat was gone *and* the spoils of war was totally lost.

  Judging from contemporary politics a big 'musical chairs' about that eternal
question: "Who shall foot the bill?" would ensue. Different regions and nations
would push for different principles. Some would argue for payment after wealth.
Some for payment after natural resources, some for payment after combat losses
(they who lost the most pay the least) and some would argue that they didn't
want that stupid war in the first place so why should they pay for it?
  Any historical arguments about who the blame belonged to would quickly be
forgotten amongst the biased histories the various factions and their supporters
would push out. There is also the big possibility that somebody claims that
EarthGov is a conspiracy against <their country> totally run by <their enemy>
whith the sole purpose of destroying them. Such capers have worked before, and
I sadly see no reason why they should stop working suddenly.
  Small rulers always look for ways of making themselves appear big and 
powerful. One of the best methods is to attack, physically or verbally, some 
big and powerful entity that is guaranteed not to strike back. EarthGov seems
like an ideal target for this kind of attacks, since its reason for existance
is to make things *better* for humankind. If they start issuing frag-orders
for interface figters to go and dump FAE on "nests of anti-internationalist 
terrorists" hither and dither they are just proving their opponents points.

  Remember that we are talking about periods spanning hundreds of years here.
Since ideologies that were totally outdated 45 years ago seem to be on the 
rise now, I see no reason why any ideology couldn't make a comback in 200 years
let alone 1800. Imagine the debate on EarthNet some time after the end of the
Nth Interstellar War and after the Fall of Night:
  "What proof does *you* have that the 'vilani' existed, you totalitarian 
internationalist? Do you have any eye-witnesses that participated in *any* of
the 'Interstellar Wars'? We have let experts scientifically examine the 
wreckage on display in the victory monument and they found that it is a fake!"
 
  Also note the large number of *ethnically homogenous* worlds all over Charted
Space hailing from *ethnically homogenous* fleets of low-sleep ships from Terra
launched during the Long Night or shortly before. I cannot imagine them 
occuring if there were a EarthGov controlling military and strategic (like 
spaceflight) resources. And the fact that they feel the need to emmigrate from
Earth seems to indicate that everything wasn't all that good there.

>       Hans Rancke

- -bertil-
PS: I'll try to give pre-Night Terra the 'Hard Times UWP treatement' and we'll
     see what the result is:)
- -- 
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3412
Subject: Re: (3405) Computers & Computer Programs 
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 92 11:07:13 PST
From: James T Perkins <jamesp@metolius.WR>


Scott,

In MegaTraveller the old-time flavor of computers is completely changed.
I've only ever designed one MegaTraveller ship (this being an unplatable
experience) but what I remember (or mis-remember) is this:

Ship designs are created with parts of the ship that require CONTROL
POINTS.  Then, control panels and holodisplays and whatnot provide
CONTROL POINTS.  For example, an automobile design has a motor and
wheels that require X control points, provided by a mechanical panel
that provides X control points.

A computer is a device which multiplies the effectiveness of the panels
and displays (effectively multiplying the productivity of the sophonts
running the panels and displays).

For example, a small cruiser may require 1000 control points.  You can
accomplish this by having a crew of 1000 sitting at mechanical panels,
or with a crew of 20 sitting in front of high-tech displays, or a crew
of 5 with the same displays and a computer.

There are no longer memory/cpu size or specific computer programs.  The
effectiveness of a computer is handled abstractly as a die modifier in
combat and sensor operations.

I miss the old-time Traveller computers.  They were quaint and
cantakerous, and added flavor to the game.

James

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3413
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Terra during the Long Night
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 92 13:00:59 MET

From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>>
>>The key lies in the centuries of the Interstellar Wars where
>>Terra and it's colonies were locked in a struggle with the
>>Vilani Empire, a potentially overwhelming enemy. Terra fought
>>this conflict under the auspices of a world government whose
>>combined forces would be too strong for any individual former
>>country to challenge. Any nationalists would therefor have to
>>resort to terrorism or possibly guerilla action. This combined
>>with a "you traitorous scum are hampering our struggle against
>>the evil Vilani Empire, jeopadizing the future of the entire
>>human race" line of propaganda could well relegate nationalism
>>to the same popularity as nazism and racism.

>  But the history of the Rule of Man could disrupt this:

I find it hard to dispute your arguments, because I find them very
plausible. But the key here is that we are not looking at Terra at
the beginning of The Long Night and trying to extrapolate what
might happen. We're looking at Terra before and after The Long
Night and trying to interpolate why things _didn't_ go the way
you suggest. So the answer here is that it could, but obviously
it didn't.

>                                                       The war was over.
>It was won. And then the newly aquired colonies almost the entire military
>of the victorious part says: "We're a new political entity. Bye bye!"
>  Imagine MacArthur establishing himself as military dictator of the West
>Pacific Alliance including Japan, Hawaii and all the territory inbetween
>including all US forces there and setting out as a totally independent
>political entity that regards the continental US as 'little brother':)
>  My guess as to a possible reaction on Terra when the Rule of Man cut and
>run is great disillutionment with all traces of interstellar government
>since they have shown themselves to be either hostile or indifferent. I
>don't think that the wartime 'we must stick together' mentality could survive
long after the threat was gone *and* the spoils of war was totally lost.

Me neither. So obviously the spoils of war wasn't lost. My guess is
that Terra became the regional capital for what was later to become
the Solomani Sphere and got _very_ preferential treatment from Dingir.
Remember, What's-his-name the First never called himself Emperor.
Imagine MacArthur keeping on making loyal noices and blaming non-
cooperation on "administrative problems". Would Congress want to
publisize their inability to  control him? Would Joe Public ever
realize the true state of affairs? Perhaps. But now increase the
communication lag to that between Terra and Dingir, and what have
you got? At least a possibility that Terra's reactions could be
kept reasonable. Remember, hundreds of more or less virgin worlds
lay around them ready to be colonized or dominated.

>  Judging from contemporary politics a big 'musical chairs' about that
>eternal question: "Who shall foot the bill?" would ensue.

I'm not saying all this wouldn't happen. I'm just saying that
if nationalism has become a swearword, then anybody would have
to pay lip service to the concept of World Unity. I wouldn't
say that slavery will never reappear in Denmark, but I don't
think it will be called slavery.

Another possibility is that Terra never lost jump capacity. I
don't see why they should have, in fact. It just became
unprofitable to trade across more than a few parsecs. Propably
Terra kept up contact with the nearest dozen worlds, exploiting
them to keep everybody at home satisfied. They would've fought
wars during The Long Night, yes, but with their colonies, not
between regions.

Oh, one more thing: for this to work, a stable population must
have been established, with population artificially controlled
at a given level.

>  Remember that we are talking about periods spanning hundreds of years
>here. Since ideologies that were totally outdated 45 years ago seem to be
>on the rise now, I see no reason why any ideology couldn't make a comback
>in 200 years let alone 1800.

True, lack of ressources allows the weirdos, the sickos and the
powermongers free play. But a sufficiency of ressources gives
the sane people a chance. Only a chance, granted, but apparently
Terra lucked out during the Long Night. The solution would be a
controlled populations _and_an_absence_of_rivals_.

>Imagine the debate on EarthNet some time after the Fall of Night:

>  "What proof does *you* have that the 'vilani' existed, you totalitarian
>internationalist? Do you have any eye-witnesses that participated in *any*
>of the 'Interstellar Wars'? We have let experts scientifically examine the
>wreckage on display in the victory monument and they found that it is a
>fake!"

:-D

>  Also note the large number of *ethnically homogenous* worlds all over
>Charted Space hailing from *ethnically homogenous* fleets of low-sleep
>ships from Terra launched during the Long Night or shortly before.

What fleets? The ships that colonized Old Islands Subsector were launched
prior to the invention of the jump drive. As for the ethnical homogenous-
ness of a lot of worlds I refer to my library data piece about National
Reemergence for a plausible (well, I think it's plausible) explanation.

>I cannot imagine them occuring if there were a EarthGov controlling military
>and strategic (like spaceflight) resources. And the fact that they feel the
>need to emmigrate from Earth seems to indicate that everything wasn't
>all that good there.

Oh, I don't know. There will allways be idealist and/or misfits. How
about people who wanted to have more than a child apiece? Try turning
your argument around. Would a region use ressources on outfitting
colony ships, if there were fighting/in danger of fighting a war? If
any colony ships were launched during the Long Night, then that
rather argues for a superabundance of ressources. Such fleets would
after all be a total loss to the economy with no prospect of any future
returns.

>PS: I'll try to give pre-Night Terra the 'Hard Times UWP treatement' and
>we'll see what the result is:)

That could be interesting ;-) But don't forget that there are
no Lucan the Nutter involved in the fall of the Long Night.

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
"I know there are some people in the world who do not tolerate their
fellow human beings, and I just can't _stand_ people like that!"
                                (after Tom Lehrer)

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3414
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Hard Times on Earth
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 92 13:54:30 MET

  I'll begin with a 'bug' of some sort: The specie currency is listed as
Copper Cr0.2 50g, Silver Cr10 30g, and Gold Cr300 30g. I do not doubt for a 
second that this comes from the markets convention of listing the current 
price of gold in dollars per troy ounce (about 30g) which is around $350 today
I think:)
  The trouble is that 30g coins get awfully large. The old and rightly 
disdained AD&D 1st edition "gold piece" came ten to the pound, which indicate
a weight of 45g. Even 2nd edition AD&D coins have much more resonable weights.

  So I propose that the weights and values are to be divided by five, except
for the copper which is divided by two. Still too large but less too large 
because otherwise the value gets too low.

  This, btw, ignores any problem with unstable metal prices.

  Now, on to Earth:

  Earth Now has an UPP of (E867972-8  514) adapted from a template in The
Traveller Book. Earth 1121 has (A867A69-F 414). Earth when the Long Night
begins should have an UPP of (A8*7***-C *14) where the atmosphere might be
normal or normal-tainted, The population is probably around 8 to 12 billion,
The government might be considered a 4 (representative democracy) or an 8 
(civil service buerocracy) depending on how you view the UN and how it might
evolve. The lawlevel is almost totally irrelevant and the techlevel is 'C'
because the Terrans got jump-3 during the Interstellar Wars.

  Depending on wether you regard the Solomani Rim during the Long Night as a
Frontier or an Outland different outcomes are possible. The S&A talks about 
raiders from the chaos inside the ROM, and some Aslan incursions, so I'm leaning
towards Outland, but it is not certain.

  Columns of letters are all the different values that can occur. Columns
marked with * are those where the changes result from Hard Times effects. Only
the extremes will be listed for the lawlevel figure. Xeno is the effective 
xenophobia of the planet, it is the number of levels the lawlevel is higher 
for outsiders than for natives. Isol lists if the planet has a *chance* of
becomming isolationist.

	Frontier:
		*    ** *	Xeno	Isol
  Possible UPP:	A877A40-C  814   0	 N
		B 6 95| B  9	 1
		C    78 A  0	 2
		     8  9  1	 3
		     9  8  2

	Outlands:
		*    ** *	Xeno	Isol
  Possible UPP:	A877A10-C  814   0	 Y
		B 6 94| B  9	 1
		C    58 A  0	 2
		D    6  9  1	 3
		     7  8  2	 4
		     8  7
 		     9 
		      
  While we should remember that Hard Times only talks about the Twilight
period of a Night, 20 years out of 1800, I think that it shows that 
balcanization is a possible outcome. A prerequisite for balcanization is 
however that the government was a representative democracy before.

- -bertil-
PS: Regarding balcanization: It is a very interesting word in that it exists
    in Swedish but is (was) almost never used, except by historians and 
    people who play Traveller. When I noticed this, I begun to ask people who
    used it if they played Traveller, and three out of the four who used it
    did:)
- -- 
"Why is it 'Solomani and Aslan' and 'Vilani and Vargr' and not 'Aslan and 
 Solomani' or 'Vargr and Vilani'. That would be the alphabethic order, you
 know!"

"*Real* travellers use UPP instead of UWP!" :)

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3415
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 92 15:21:33 CST
From: bonnevil@stolaf.edu (Steven Bonneville)
Subject: Re:  (3409) Imperial Economics


The message which looked at getting some numbers for the Imperial economy
was very interesting.  You'd think that we'd have heard that the Imperium's
population was about seventeen quadrillion a few times before now, wouldn't
you?  I'd like to hear a little more about the assumptions built into this
rough estimate.  For instance, why the class-A ports get significantly more
traffic despite their reduced numbers.  How did you decide on the Imperial
tax rate?  What influences the GPP figures for a planet, and to what extent,
for those of us unfamiliar with whatever formula -- ditto with port facilities.

Do these figures assume a strong economy?  I know that part of the reason for
appointing Dulinor to Ilelish was to help relieve the region's persistent
economic recession.  Ilelish was a bit of a backwater, ignored by the 
Empire in favor of the frontier and core regions.  

If they still believe in deficit spending, the Imperial debt could be in the
QUADRILLIONS or worse -- that's BILLIONS of MCr!

Still, very interesting.  It gives one an idea of the sort of scale that
we're dealing with here....

- --Steve

(the following reprinted with permission of the Traveller's Aid Society)

:002-1115       Capital/Core:
"In a press conference held today in the Unity Hall in the Palace, the
 official Imperial budget was released for fiscal year 1115.
"There were no major surprises in the proclamation.  As expected, an
 economic aid package to Ilelish and Zarushagar sectors was cut to levels
 much lower than the original and highly controversial package proposed
 before the Moot by Duke Andrew of Liasdi.
"In response to questions regarding the Imperial decision, the spokesperson
 for the Ministry of the Treasury, Viscount Chandrasekhar, noted that the
 Imperium was committed to other expenses considered more likely to benefit
 the populace as a whole, not just in the depressed Ilelish region.
"He stated that among these expenses is the servicing and reduction of the
 Imperial debt, incurred by the military build-up and rebuilding efforts in
 Deneb and the Spinward Marches caused by the recently concluded Fifth
 Frontier War, and is a temporary problem which in no way threatens the 
 stability of any Imperial regions."
 

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3416
From: mccord@equinox.unr.edu (Travis McCord)
Subject: Postscript MapmakerProgram
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 92 17:02:58 GMT


Ask & ye shall recieve... the Postscript Subsector Mapmaker Program
I wrote that somebody asked for last (biweekly) digest is now on
sunbane.

The file mapmaker.post in the /donations directory contains the
rec.games.frp post of the MOST RECENT version of the  program;
it works on both BSD and SysV Unix and should require only
minor changes on other machines with C compilers. (I hope.)

The first part of the file is an overview; the program itself is
tar'd, compressed and uuencoded, and appended to the end of the
post.  Reviews of it have been fairly favorable, if I may say so
myself. :)

Have fun.

					--Travis McCord
					  mccord@equinox.unr.edu


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3417
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re: Terra during the Long Night
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 92 15:26:26 MET

> From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
> Subject: (3413) Re: Terra during the Long Night
> 
> I find it hard to dispute your arguments, because I find them very
> plausible. But the key here is that we are not looking at Terra at
> the beginning of The Long Night and trying to extrapolate what
> might happen. We're looking at Terra before and after The Long
> Night and trying to interpolate why things _didn't_ go the way
> you suggest. So the answer here is that it could, but obviously
> it didn't.

  I'm not totally convinced about that because our data is sadly lacking. 
Almost all we have are two datapoints: UN-something have become a defacto
EarthGov before/during the Interstellar Wars and Terra is probably united
when the Dawn comes.

  It would be as if shown two pictures of Europe 1800 years apart, one over
the Roman Empire year 200 and one over the (potential) EEC year 2000. 
A deduction from that might be that the changes in 1800 years are that
the focus of the political entity has gone northwards, the different regions
(called 'nations') have become more independent, the name have changed, and
the government has changed. The two latter probably happened at the same time
with the change in government leading to the change of name.

  I think it is very possible, keeping in mind that a lot of things can 
happen during 1800 years, for a planet to begin as one entity, balcanize in
several periods, fight some wars and unite again.

  S&A talks about the Dusk and mentions that the Old Earth Union, which
apparently included Terra and some worlds probably not further from Terra
than 10 or 15 parsecs, failed during one point in the Night, that all 
habitations in the Solar System except for Luna were abandoned at some
time during the night and that the Terran Mercantile Community existed at one
point during the night. It still leaves half-a-millenium sized holes in the
history.

  When discussing Terran participation in Interstellar communities during
the Long Night it is interesting to note that one of the prerequisites for
something like this to form in the first part of a Night is jump-1 access
to other worlds. Terra has only 4 neighbours on jump-2 distance and none on
jump-1. Had there been just one less neighbour on jump-2, Terra would have got
the Hard Times classification of "Isolated" which would have made matters
worse.

> True, lack of ressources allows the weirdos, the sickos and the
> powermongers free play. But a sufficiency of ressources gives
> the sane people a chance. Only a chance, granted, but apparently
> Terra lucked out during the Long Night. The solution would be a
> controlled populations _and_an_absence_of_rivals_.

  My guess as to the effective TL of Terra during the Long Night is 9, since
this is the lowest that supports jumptech. This is a fall of 4 units from 
the C level they had at the end of the wars. Imagine the depression that can
make a TL go down 4 units. It is like going from today to before the Wright
brothers.

> >  Also note the large number of *ethnically homogenous* worlds all over
> >Charted Space hailing from *ethnically homogenous* fleets of low-sleep
> >ships from Terra launched during the Long Night or shortly before.
> 
> What fleets? The ships that colonized Old Islands Subsector were launched
> prior to the invention of the jump drive. As for the ethnical homogenous-
> ness of a lot of worlds I refer to my library data piece about National
> Reemergence for a plausible (well, I think it's plausible) explanation.

  Going from S&A, there are two periods of mass emmigration from Terra. 
The first is where big groups of various small nationalities go and colonize
because they fear that EarthGov and the situation on Terra will effectively
annihilate their cultures (through dissolution and absobtion). This occur
around the Fall of Night.
  
  The second wave, not stated explicitely, occur around -400 Imperial and it
is now those who will eventually become the Sworldworlders leave. This is at
the absolute depths of the night. This isn't commented upon, but it has a
mark on the timeline.
 
  BTW: You mention your library data entry, and I remember it mentioning a
planet called Funftreich. It made me wonder were the Fourth Reich were. My bet
would be on Terra, during the Night.

> >PS: I'll try to give pre-Night Terra the 'Hard Times UWP treatement' and
> >we'll see what the result is:)
> 
> That could be interesting ;-) But don't forget that there are
> no Lucan the Nutter involved in the fall of the Long Night.

  That is why I didn't include any warzone, intense warzone and black 
(nukem-til-they-glow) warzone DM's in the analysis of Terra:)
 
>       Hans Rancke

- -bertil-
- -- 
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3418
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 92 10:31:12 CST
From: Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US (Steve Higginbotham)
Subject: more MT commerce

I notice that someone else has finally plugged the numbers in to get an
idea of the size of the MT economy.  Mine only did the Spinward Marches and
Trojan Reaches.  Please note that the shipping levels indicated represented
about one-half percent of the gross Imperial product.  I don't know what
the USA has, but it is probably greater than that.
Notice, also, that that means that high pop worlds will have FAR more than
the indicated traffic levels.  My own analysis for Trin indicated a ship
(~1000 tons) arriving every 1.4 seconds.  Traffic control headaches? You
bet!


To change the subject to rules analysis (as opposed to Universe analysis),
Cynthia and I have been beating on the Commerce rules to make them work a
little better.  We have the following sugestions that seem to work:

    1)  Remove the starport modifier to cost of goods.  Instead place it on
the resale price of your goods.
    It makes very little sense to assume that the size of the transport hub
will affect the avilability and price of LOCAL products.  A lousy starport
might indicate that very little imports happen, but that will only drive up
the price of the imports, not locally produced goods.  Moving that modifier
will simulate reality slightly better, and encourage PCs away from the
High-pop A starport worlds they normally are forced to frequent to pay for
that shiny new starship.
    2)  ON Novelties ONLY, apply starport modifiers to resale price from
BOTH starport of origin and destination starport.
    Therefore, novelties will be more valuable moving from type E to Type E
starports - From places that don't export much to places that don't import
much.  Therefore the prices will match the scarcity necessary for
novelties.
    3)  Apply a T:2000 breakdown number to starships.
    Suddenly, starships have a systematic method of determining mechanical
problems.  They also are now available for REALLY low prices, if you don't
mind buying something that breaks down quite a bit.  Net effect - more
starships for the PCs, and more accidents for the GM to exploit.  Good idea
all around.

Hmmm...
Everything else is still experimental at this point.  Better wait on the
rest.

Has ANYONE done any work on Sensor tasks???
The original stuff(referees guide) is dreck.  With interstellar range
passive sensors, and the most sensitive neutrino sensor known to Imperial
science, detecting a Tigris at much beyond 1.5 light seconds is next to
impossible (10+ at that range, 12+ at 500 Mm, 16+ at 2 light seconds, etc.)
The guidelines from Knightfall, World Builder's Handbook, and everywhere
else I've looked are mostly worse.  At least they integrate detection range
with task difficulty, but there is no consistent method indicated.
Any comments?  Suggestions?  Whatever?

Later, later...
                                    Steve Higginbotham

- -- Via DLG Pro v0.985b

Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US

I have learned to use the word "impossible" with the greatest caution.
                                    --W. von Braun

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3419
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Hard Times on Terra (Not really)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 92 19:18:26 MET

First a note: I still haven't gotten _Rats&Cats_, so I may lack
some data available to you.

Bertil writes:

>  Depending on wether you regard the Solomani Rim during the Long Night as a
>Frontier or an Outland different outcomes are possible.

I'd go for a Safe myself. Remember, The Long Night was a slow
decay, not a catastrophic event. Step 1 of Hard Times hits the
high-population, good starport worlds hardest, but that's
because they were specifically targeted. It takes a warfleet to
make an impression on a high-population world. Nothing else
will. Certainly not a band of half-assed raiders. Try working
out the defenses of Terra: 10 billion inhabitants @ 500 credits
gives a yearly budget of 5 trillion credits. The fleet is
equivalent to 10 times that. Even if you put 99% of those ships
in ordinary to reflect a depressed economy, you still wind up
with 500.000 MCr worth of ships. The fleet that can challenge that
is not a raider fleet, it's a 3rd Imperium fleet.


                                               The S&A talks about
>raiders from the chaos inside the ROM, and some Aslan incursions, so I'm
>leaning towards Outland, but it is not certain.

ROM? What's that?

>  While we should remember that Hard Times only talks about the Twilight
>period of a Night, 20 years out of 1800, I think that it shows that
>balcanization is a possible outcome. A prerequisite for balcanization is
>however that the government was a representative democracy before.

I don't dispute that balcanization is a very possible outcome,
just that it is the only possible outcome. And from what we
know it is, in fact, not the outcome. As for Hard Times,
Hard Times talks of the Twilight of a particular Night and I
don't think that it can really be applied to The Long Night.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "These are hard times in the Empire.
        In the old Empire are very hard times."
                        Traditional song.

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3420
Date: Wed,  8 Jan 1992 14:48:47 -0500 (EST)
From: William Henry Timmins <wt0b+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: A note on coins and values

Anyone here ever read "Illegal Aliens"?

Besides being a bit of a silly story, it had the interesting idea that
galactic currency (used throughout the galaxy by many species) was based
on Thulium.

Thulium?? Yes, thulium. As the book pointed out, thulium is fairly
dense, very rare, and has almost no useful attributes. Other metals are
stronger, weaker, less or more dense, less or more reactive.

In short, it makes a great substance to denote value without usefulness.

Comments?

- -Pooh Bear


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3421
Date:     Wed, 8 Jan 92 21:56:59 EST
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  More Number crunching

Could someone out there with the computer files at hand see how many worlds
in the Spinward Marches are "failing" or "doomed" by Hard Times standards
before everything comes apart?

Rob Dean


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3422
Date:     Wed, 8 Jan 92 21:55:22 EST
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Ramblings

Wildstar's number crunching looks interesting, but I haven't had time to go
over his assumptions carefully.  I'm leery of using Trillion Credit Squadron
values without thinking things over a bit.  I'm away from my desk until the
16th, so am accessing with a slow modem...thus, I probably will be quiet for
another week.

I jotted down two and a half pages of hand-written notes today thinking about
how to handle planetary defense and 'viking raid' types of combats, somewhat
influenced by Hard Times.  More on this when I get a chance...however, I looked
up a number as a result.  Did you all know that the current installed 
electrical generating capacity in the US is about 720,000MW?  The notorious
Atlantis class battleship has a 7,200,000MW power plant, enough to run the
US ten times over...(I was thinking about how many 250MW beam lasers a planet
might be able to power from the commercial power grid.)

Rob Dean


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3423
From: jpb@umbio.med.miami.edu (Joe Block)
Subject: Starport traffic
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 92 1:22:27 EST


The recent discussion of the *large* amount of takeoffs and landings on the
larger worlds (someone mentioned one every 1.4 seconds or so on Trin) has forced
me to give up on the idea of "one world, one starport."

I think a much more reasonable assumption is that the starport code only
represents the best available facilities on a world.  Most of the interstellar
traffic is going to be handled by existing airport facilities.  After all, you
have everything you need - proximity to large metropolitan areas, pre-existing
facilities for transferring cargo to/from rail or trucks, experience with
dealing with large amounts of air traffic, hangar space, etc etc.

I'm not familiar enough with air travel to be sure, but aren't there 75+
international airports here on Terra?  That would make for roughly one per
couple of minutes, less if you consider that your average scout or free trader
doesn't really need much more than a wide space for a landing facility.  One
PC in a campaign I ran about 10 years ago used to land his ship right outside
of the factory he was buying the weapons he was smuggling (He used to land
inside the fence until an unfortunate mishap involving a lousy pilot and a
tractor trailer).

Sorry I forgot who posted about Trin, but I deleted that message before I
realized had something to contribute on the subject.

Joe Block (jpb@umbio.med.miami.edu)
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
 deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
                                        Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3424
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re: Ramblings
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 92 11:04:34 MET

> From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
> Subject: (3422)  Ramblings
> 
> Did you all know that the current installed 
> electrical generating capacity in the US is about 720,000MW?  The notorious
> Atlantis class battleship has a 7,200,000MW power plant, enough to run the
> US ten times over...(I was thinking about how many 250MW beam lasers a planet
> might be able to power from the commercial power grid.)

  One thing that I noticed in Hard Times is that the Strephonian era Imperium
apparently were a relatively peaceful and trusting place. It is especially
noted that "Many starports have emplaced missile batteries to repel unwanted
visitors" and that cargo is now NAS-ed to detect stowaways.

  I've always assumed that these measures were in effect. Some commercial
airports in the world today have SAM-batteries, and almost all Swedish harbours
have some form of coastal artillery dug into some appropriate island. Usually
not manned, but it is there. As for NAS-ing: It is easy, it is fast, it is 
cheap and I've included it in the "General Scan" done for a small fee on demand
along with densitometer and other scans for weapons and explosives.

  Judging from this it might seem that my(?) most paranoid idea that planets 
require all large buildings to include a small laser turret on the roof is far
to paranoid for the pre-Rebellion era.

> Rob Dean

- -bertil-
- -- 
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3425
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re: Hard Times on Terra
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 92 15:08:29 MET

> From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
> Subject: (3419) Hard Times on Terra (Not really)
> 
> First a note: I still haven't gotten _Rats&Cats_, so I may lack
> some data available to you.
  
  I haven't had the time to read it thoroughly until last night, so I was just 
working from memories and impressions.
 
> I'd go for a Safe myself. Remember, The Long Night was a slow
> decay, not a catastrophic event. Step 1 of Hard Times hits the
> high-population, good starport worlds hardest, but that's
> because they were specifically targeted.

  I interpret the Hard Times rules as that they are to be applied on *all* 
worlds inside the bounds of the Imperium. Worlds that are in Safe areas never
touched by the tiniest trace of the war get the same treatment, but without
the Frontier, Outland, Wilds, Warzone, Intense Warzone and Black Warzone DM's.
  This leads me to belive that the major effect in Safe areas isn't from
the physical destruction of the starport facilities but more from the 
destruction of shipping and markets, leading to the starports going bancrupt
or cutting down on operations if they can't make a profit.

> Try working
> out the defenses of Terra: 10 billion inhabitants @ 500 credits
> gives a yearly budget of 5 trillion credits. The fleet is
> equivalent to 10 times that. Even if you put 99% of those ships
> in ordinary to reflect a depressed economy, you still wind up
> with 500.000 MCr worth of ships. The fleet that can challenge that
> is not a raider fleet, it's a 3rd Imperium fleet.

  There is no need to go in the hard way with blazing lasers and all that.
All that is needed is that the threat of piracy is so big that merchants 
fear to travel, leading to economic recession and lesser demand for starships
from the yards at the starport, leading to more pirates competing for fewer
merchants, leading to more desperate pirates, leading to more afraid merchants
and so on.
  
  There is no need for this to happen close to Terra. Anywhere within their
economic sphere would be ok. As the merchants begin to neglect high risk
routes the pirates will follow them inwards.

  I seem to remember from the COACC book that the defences of Terra when the
Rule of Man set off on it's own were primarily in-system assets. It is of
course possible to build jump-capable ships to patrol the spacelanes, but
the instance the total costs from the trade (including militart escorts) is
greater than the gain of the trade to either the government or the merchants
the trade will cease. And the colonies will be in deep dodo.

  [Btw: I'll expect that most of the piracy will cease during a Night as soon
as the trade collapses totally. No sheep -> starving wolves. The time for
this to happen is ofcourse dependent on the rate of decline. As the decline 
into the Long Night were rather slow, pirates could have held out hundreds
of years.]

> ROM? What's that?

  Rule of Man. Here is, quoted condensed and paraphrazed what Rats&Cats say
about the Long Night:

  The Long Night were less hard on the worlds in the Rim than those in the
former ROM. Terra and Friends had relatively self-sufficient economies. At 
the center of ROM piracy and plunder were rampant.
  Terra and the original confederation worlds (probably about 40 parsecs radius
from Terra) organized into the Terran Mercantile Community which reformed into
a government in -1690. They had to protect their trade from pirates and 
renegade naval units from the center of ROM. 
  As time passes trade dry up except on a subsector level. The TMC fail and
Terra and 'the local community' (say 5 pc radius) organize into the Old
Earth Union in -1110. Now some of the other ex-confederation states in 
Dark Nebula, Alpha Crucis, Magyar and Reaver's Deep begin to raid their
neighbours closer to the center (of the Terran Confederation). This ended when
the Aslan arrived and sporadic fighting with the Aslan continued until 380.

  Regardless of the direct effect on Terra, the "devastating" raids would have
further destroyed interstellar trade in the Rim area.

>       Hans Rancke

- -bertil-
- -- 
Question to Radio Free Ara Pacis:

Q: Why can't dolphins become members of the Solomani Party?

A: Most people say that it is because they are too smart, but the real
   reason is anatomical: they can't wear jackboots.

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3426
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Rats, Cats & Bugs
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 92 15:17:59 MET

  When I look at the 'dot map' over the Confederation on page 11, and compare
the listed position of Home (Aldebaran 1009) and Sulawesi (Canopus 1025) I 
discovered that there is no star system on those locations!
  "Every star system position accurately shown" indeed....

  It must be a SolSec plot similar to that KGB used to delete streets and add
false features to the Moscow street-maps:)
 
- -bertil-
PS: Daibei is written "Diabei" on the map on page 10:)
- -- 
"CHTONIA! The Solomani have a member-state called CTHONIA!? And the main planet
 is named R'yleh, right? Quick! Where do I sign up for a Zhodani core
 expedition?!"

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
*****************

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Date: Mon Jan 13 09:19:13 PST 1992
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Subject: TML Bundle #281: Table of Contents

-AMN- --Date--- --Sender--------- --Subject-----------------------------------
3427  07-Jan-92 Derek Wildstar    Re: Shipping Volume << A couple of interestng
3428  09-Jan-92 Hans Rancke-Madse Re: Terra during the Long Night. << >From: d9
3429  09-Jan-92 Hans Rancke-Madse Hard times in the Domain (really?) << Robert 
3430  09-Jan-92 KELLOGG@ducvax.au Starship Life Support Costs << Greetings A wh
3431  09-Jan-92 Brandon Cope      optional rules << Hello everyone. This is my 
3432  09-Jan-92 Stuart Willard Da Seeker Gaming Systems Deckplans << Howdy! I a
3433  10-Jan-92 Cynthia Higginbot Rob Dean's Question << Rob Dean was wondering
3434  10-Jan-92 Steve Higginbotha Terra and the Long Night << I know this may s
3435  10-Jan-92 Richard Johnson   Re: (3317) Re: Starship Passengers and... << 
3436  10-Jan-92 KELLOGG@ducvax.au Aslan and Nukes << Just a quick point: There 
3437  10-Jan-92 Brandon Cope      the optional rules, the game setting, big vs 
3438  09-Jan-92 Adrian Hurt       Re: Earth in the Long Night << d9bertil@dtek.
3439  10-Jan-92 Brandon Cope      Traveller to GURPS << I won't post it to the 
3440  11-Jan-92 Hans Rancke-Madse Re: Starport traffic << My solution is to put

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3427
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 92 23:11:14 EST
From: uunet!popeet!wildstar@sequent.UUCP (Derek Wildstar)
Subject: Re: Shipping Volume


A couple of interestng (and perhaps non-obvious) things follow from my analysis
of the shipbuilding capacity of the Imperium.  The most important is that
the volume of shipping is *INVERSELY* dependent on the size of the ships used
to carry it.  This is because larger ships require more of a shipyard's
capacity, in addition to taking longer to construct!  When I calculated my
shipping volume, I assumed an "average" mix of ships, taking the same amount
of starship resources as one 10,000 ton vessel, and yeilding 1 ship per
million ton-weeks of shipbuilding capacity, with an average displacement of
6,250 tons per vessel (and presumably about 3,125 tons of cargo capacity).
Recomputing with 200-ton traders would result in over 3.3 times the total
volume of shipping (and presumably a similar increase in cargo capacity).

The Trillion Credit Squadron rules I used were probably never meant to apply
to civillian, merchant shipbuilding capacity; I used them because they were
the only ones available.  Better rules should include multipliers to the
capacity based on Tech Level and trade categories, as well as for Population
and Government Type.  Similarly, the trade through a port should be dependent
on the world's population, government type, law level, tech level, and trade 
categories, and astrographic location, as well as its starport type.

Nevertheless, let us proceed boldly into the fray.  I computed an "average"
Class A port as handling 27.3 million tons of shipping in a week.  This would
include all imports, exports, and trans-shipments.  Halving this number gives
an estimate of the total *CARGO* volume (remember, I was using the total volume
of the ships involved): 13.65 million tons a week.  For simplicity's sake,
I will assume that 50% of this is imports, with the balance being exports and
trans-shipments; this gives us a final figure of 6.8 million tons of imports
per week.  For comparison, US imports of 31.5 million tons works out to about
0.6 million tons per week (I've been working in Displacement Tons all along).

If the US is taken to be an "average" Class A world, the Traveller shipyards
can maintain this level of trade (in terms of constructing and maintaining
the starships) even if the ships are as large as an average of 50,000 tons.
However, if the US is taken to be an "average" TL-7/8 world (and therefore
much more probably a Class B or even Class C port), then the major Imperial
worlds (with tech levels in the 14 to 15 range, and Class A starports) could be
doing 10 to 20 *TIMES* the trade of the US.

While these volumes of trade are not enough to supply a world with the staples
of life, it is more than enough to make a massive difference in the tech level
and quality of life (excercise: look around and mentally "remove" everything
that has been imported from overseas; remember that some components that you
take for granted may be imported - like the DRAM in your computer).

Major gaming effects:
  o Worlds (small outposts and stations excepted) is probably self-sufficent
    in terms of staples (air, water, basic foods, fuel) although the production
    or distribution of these may involve imported equipment or skills.
  o A majority of the available consumer goods are likely to be imported (or
    produced primarily for the export market, depending on whether the world
    is primarily an importer, like the US, or an exporter, like Japan).
  o A busy port will have many hundreds, up to thousands, of ships operating
    around it; probably at a large number of separate facilities (the World
    Builder's Handbook provides quite nicely for this).  A port is likely to
    be as busy as a major US airport, with vessels arriving and departing
    every two to fifteen minutes.
  o Even the sleepiest of ports will have a flow of traffic; anywhere from a
    ship a day to one every couple of weeks.

Rebellion effects:
  o Destruction of shipbuilding capacity has a long-term effect; if the yard
    is not rebuilt, the effect becomes cumulative as worn-out ships are not
    replaced.  The average starship will become older and less reliable, as
    ships are kept in service due to a lack of replacements.
  o Destruction of ships has an immediate effect; even if all shipyards are
    left intact, because of the long time needed to construct any ship.
    Replacements are likely to be smaller ships, because they can be built
    faster, and with fewer shipyard resources.

Wildstar


 .signature: syntax error in line 1, ")" unexpected.

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3428
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Terra during the Long Night.
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 92 20:08:09 MET

>From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
>
>>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>>
>>I find it hard to dispute your arguments, because I find them very
>>plausible. But the key here is that we are not looking at Terra at
>>the beginning of The Long Night and trying to extrapolate what
>>might happen. We're looking at Terra before and after The Long
>>Night and trying to interpolate why things _didn't_ go the way
>>you suggest. So the answer here is that it could, but obviously
>>it didn't.
>
>  I'm not totally convinced about that because our data is sadly lacking.
>Almost all we have are two datapoints: UN-something have become a defacto
>EarthGov before/during the Interstellar Wars and Terra is probably united
>when the Dawn comes.
>
>  It would be as if shown two pictures of Europe 1800 years apart, one over
>the Roman Empire year 200 and one over the (potential) EEC year 2000.
>A deduction from that might be that the changes in 1800 years are that
>the focus of the political entity has gone northwards, the different regions
>(called 'nations') have become more independent, the name have changed, and
>the government has changed. The two latter probably happened at the same time
>with the change in government leading to the change of name.

Now I'm getting confused. Didn't you start this thread by pointing out that
Terra had apparently gone through the whole Long Night without any
significant changes to regional names? Are you saying now that the name
changes _are_ significant? If so, what's the problem?

>  I think it is very possible, keeping in mind that a lot of things can
>happen during 1800 years, for a planet to begin as one entity, balcanize in
>several periods, fight some wars and unite again.

Sure. I agree. Very possible. But did it?

>  S&A talks about the Dusk and mentions that the Old Earth Union, which
>apparently included Terra and some worlds probably not further from Terra
>than 10 or 15 parsecs, failed during one point in the Night, that all
>habitations in the Solar System except for Luna were abandoned at some
>time during the night and that the Terran Mercantile Community existed at one
>point during the night. It still leaves half-a-millenium sized holes in the
>history.

That's a revision of what they said in _Solomani Rim_. I dug SR up last
night, and it states that Terra during The Long Night was the capital of
the Old Earth Union (containing "most of the early Terran colonies from
Barnard to Forlorn and from Dismal to the merchant refuelling station at
Sirius"; approx. 17 worlds) and that it and The Easter Concord, The Vegan
Polity and The Dingir League survived the Long Night "by trading within
themselves and maintaining their defenses". No mention of any Terran
Merchant Community or any catastrophic failure of the Old Earth Union.

>  When discussing Terran participation in Interstellar communities during
>the Long Night it is interesting to note that one of the prerequisites for
>something like this to form in the first part of a Night is jump-1 access
>to other worlds. Terra has only 4 neighbours on jump-2 distance and none on
>jump-1. Had there been just one less neighbour on jump-2, Terra would have
>got the Hard Times classification of "Isolated" which would have made matters
>worse.

It didn't need to form, it was there to begin with. It contracted down
to 17 worlds. And I don't think that any world containing most of the
human beings in a subsector can really ever be called isolated. The
rest of the subsector might be considered isolated from it...

>  My guess as to the effective TL of Terra during the Long Night is 9, since
>this is the lowest that supports jumptech. This is a fall of 4 units from
>the C level they had at the end of the wars. Imagine the depression that can
>make a TL go down 4 units. It is like going from today to before the Wright
>brothers.

You're arguing in circles. A depression that can drop Terra 4 tech levels
must be very severe, so Terra propably dropped 4 tech levels. But what if
Terra didn't drop 4 tech levels? That would mean that the depression wasn't
all that bad, so propably Terra didn't drop 4 levels ;-)

I think that in order to maintain the Old Earth Union, they must have
retained jump-2 at least, and I don't see why they need to have lost
jump-3 at all. Wait, I take that back. Looking at the astrography of the
Solomani Rim it makes sense that they lost jump-3 and retained jump-2.
That would leave the Union isolated. The worlds to rimward are mostly
empty, to spinward and coreward the Dingir League and the Vegan Polity
jealously guards their own trade planets and to trailing is a three parsec
gap that makes trade that way unprofitable.

Note that the fact that the rimward worlds remained empty indicates a lack
of population pressure, which indicates population control, which would
allow a really stable economy. Stable, but stagnant.

>  Going from S&A, there are two periods of mass emmigration from Terra.
>The first is where big groups of various small nationalities go and colonize
>because they fear that EarthGov and the situation on Terra will effectively
>annihilate their cultures (through dissolution and absobtion). This occur
>around the Fall of Night.

Pity. In my personal Traveller universe I put the first diaspora during the
Rule of Man years. Expanding economy, United Nations ideology (nationalism
is BAD, but peaceful culturalism is good). I don't think I'll change that.
It makes more sense that small groups can afford to emigrate in a boom
period than in a depression. (And afore you mention how America was filled,
I mean a depression that affects both the emigration and the immigration
planets).

>  The second wave, not stated explicitely, occur around -400 Imperial and it
>is now those who will eventually become the Sworldworlders leave. This is at
>the absolute depths of the night. This isn't commented upon, but it has a
>mark on the timeline.

- -400 is not the depths of the  night. On the contrary, it's well into
the dawn. According to SR, "trade was reestablished in many areas by
- -500". And that makes sense. Any economy that could afford to send off
the Swordworlders had to have at least a little surplus. In fact,
unless Rats&Cats directly contradict this, I'll suggest that the Terran
Mercantile Community is the trade sphere created by the Old Earth Union
at the end of the Night.


>  BTW: You mention your library data entry, and I remember it mentioning a
>planet called Funftreich. It made me wonder were the Fourth Reich were. My
>bet would be on Terra, during the Night.

Funftreich is nonofficial, it's a planet I made up to supply
the people who colonized the Weltbund area. (That's why it's
placed in a sector for which I had no data :-). Actually, the
Fourth Reich is supposed to be now (or in a few years). Remember
that much of the history and culture of these neo-nationalist
planets are more or less made up to specification. The ideology
of Funftreich were not "Deutchland uber alles" but "Our ancestors
were amazing folks and we must strive to be worthy of them".
History was rewritten to fit. This happened a lot when abandoned
planets went neo-nationalist.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "Come all brother spacemen that travel along.
         Oh, pray come and tell me where the trade is all gone.
         Long time have I travelled, and I cannot find none.
         Ch: And sing: All the hard times of the Empire.
             In the Empire are very hard times."
                                Traditional song.

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3429
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Hard times in the Domain (really?)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 92 20:55:00 MET

Robert S. Dean writes:

> Could someone out there with the computer files at hand see how many worlds
> in the Spinward Marches are "failing" or "doomed" by Hard Times standards
> before everything comes apart?

Always remembering that the two enemies that threathen the Domain would _not_
target high-population worlds for destruction. Aslan _ihatei_ wants land, so
they would concentrate on low-population worlds (IMO the attack on Aki is
completely implausible). Besides, their methods are mostly peaceful. Certainly
they would not use either nuclear or bacterial weapons (Yes, I know they've
been reported to use both, but think about it. Nuclear weapons are obviously
ridiculous. Aslan motives is to acquire land. Killing humans (if necessary) is
incidental. So who's going to kill humans by nuking and render the land
uninhabitable? Silly notion. Bacterological weapons seems more reasonable
at first, but would an _ihatei_ fleet really risk starting a biowar with
humans? How long could they expect to keep their new land? If the aslans
really did try bioweapons then there may indeed be a couple of new glowing
planets in the Domain, but otherwise, no.) (So what are the Wilds and the
Outlands between the Domain and the aslans doing there? Beats me.)

Incidentally, would anybody care to calculate the economics of _ihatei_
fleets? How big a percentage of _ihatei_ can each aslan generation afford
to send off? How many ships would the Domain need to beat off a century's
accumulated _ihatei_, assuming that every single one went across the Great
Rift instead of some of them going rimwards? How many would they need,
if they can play off one clan against another? How many ships would they have
in their rimward subsectors even if they sent all the regular ships coreward
to deal with the vargr and just left the subsector forces?
I'd be interested to compare your findings to mine.

As for the vargr raiders, they want loot. They _need_ loot to maintain
their fleet. They do _not_ need to get the fleet shot to bits in the
process of acquiring the loot. Now, what targets are they going to select,
low and medium population worlds with reasonable defenses or high-population
worlds with defenses equivalent to a couple of trillion credit squadrons?

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "Come all brother spacemen that travel along.
         Oh, pray come and tell me where the trade is all gone.
         Long time have I travelled, and I cannot find none."
         Ch: "And sing: All the hard times of the Empire.
              In the Empire are very hard times."
                                Traditional song.

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3430
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1992 14:54 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: Starship Life Support Costs

Greetings

A while ago, there was a small discussion of the life support costs of living
on a starship.  Specifically the 2000 Cr per person per jump (Jump being
about 2 weeks approx because I assume they are including time for in system
manuvering.)  So that comes out to 1000 Cr per week per person in life support
costs.

Ok, what does it pay for?  Good question.  Well, according to the Ref's
manual the cost/power/weight/volume of lights, heat, air, cooking, waste
recycling etc. does not change from TL 5 all the way to TL 21.  If so then
the technology used must be similar to that currently used.

Ok, that means you are going to need carbon dioxide filters, dust filters
and such that are going to have to be replaced on a regular basis.  Also
Emergency life support equipment is going to have to be serviced from time
to time, not to mention perisable medical supplies which will need to be
purchased if used or not.  (perhaps a wily starship crew could resell these
to dirtside hospitals before the expiration date was completely up to help
cut costs?)

Food?  Well it isn't that expensive, I have seen figures published saying
good food was about 200 Cr per week (I'll have to check that)
I also remember there was a bit in the Traveller Adventure on the cost of
breathing air.  (Aramis has an air tax I believe)  I think it was 150 Cr
per week (Of course that includes the cost of beaurocracies)

Still, I these are small costs overall.  What I think would soak up the most
cash would be the cost of various equipment maintainance.  Most aircraft
undergo maintainance inspections every 100 hrs of flight and a major inspection
every 1000 hrs (Sorry I'm only a student pilot not an aircraft owner)
Starships on the other hand have their overhauls every year.  A year of
operation is a LONG time.  I'd guess that the 1000 cr per week goes mostly
toward routine equipment replacement and spares.

Speaking of air replenishing systems, I read a while ago on sci.military about
'Oxygen Candles' which are an emergency air system on submarines.  Basically
it is a 'candle' (quite large: 30cm diameter by 50cm high) which 'burns'
releasing oxygen and heat as it does so.
	I imagine it as a kind of oxydizer rich solid rocket fuel.  Not that it
produces any thrust, but that it is a material which holds the oxygen
chemically, and releases it upon being heated.  The oxygen burns the 'candle',
heating it, releasing more oxygen.

I would assume these are carried aboard ships for emergency use.  Now, it has
been pointed out that there are existing worlds in the spinward marches which
would be 'failing' before the trouble started.  Say a Vaccum world with too
low technology.  Explain it?  Well, how about an naturally occuring mineral
deposit similar to these 'oxygen candles'?  It would be a local material that
would find a ready market!

Scott Kellogg

Odd image # 274:  Imagine an Aslan on catnip...

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3431
Date:    Thu, 9 Jan 1992 17:15:21 -0600 (CST)
From: A_COPEAB@CCSVAX.SFASU.EDU (Brandon Cope)
Subject: optional rules

Hello everyone. This is my first post to the list. I hope I'm not rehashing
stuff that has been beaten to death in recent memory...
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

While the old Traveller system is okay, it does have some problems.
Here are a few things I found to be rather helpful:

Combat System
- -------------

Multiple Attacks:
In a 15 second combat round, it is somewhat unrealistic to assume that
a character may only fire once (excepting panic fire and bursts from
automatic weapons). There is an easy way to allow a character multiple
shots. Each additional shot is at a cumlative -1 to skill. So, for example,
three shots in a round will all be at -2. There are a few additional
modifiers. A revolver is an additional -1. A bolt action rifle has a -3,
not a -1, penalty. Automatic weapons may fire additonal bursts, but
the penalty is -2. Due to the variable loading times of single shot
weapons (muskets, grenade launchers, bows, etc), the GM must determine if such 
weapons can fire more than once per round, and at what penalty.

Hit Points:
While the damage system is somewhat realistic, it is also somewhat cumbersome.
An easier way to handle the amount of damage a character takes is to add up
the character's Strength, Dexterity, and Endurance, and treat it as a hit point
pool. After combat, the character then reassigns the points back to stats.
Obviously, no stat can end up higher than it was before combat began. Also,
when a character reaches 0 hp, he passes out. Death occurs when the character
reaches a negative score equal to or greater than the character's Endurance.

Weapon Damage:
The damage of several weapons should be changed:
	Body Pistol - 1d6	Revolver - 2d6		Auto-pistol - 2d6
	Rifle - 4d6

Armor System:
Rather than having armor reduce the chance for an attacker to hit the
opponent, the armor should reduce damage. Each type of armor is rated
for three types of defense: melee, ballistic, and laser. High energy
weapons are defended against by the lower of the ballistic and laser
numbers. In each category, the armor has a certian number of dice.
If the defender is hit, roll the damage for the weapon, and then the 
resistance for the armor. If the armor's roll is equal to or greater than
the damage roll, the defender takes no damage. If the damage roll is
greater, subtract the resistance roll from the damage roll, and apply to
the defender. Optional ammo types can easily be recreated -- AP rounds
halve the armor's resistance roll, but do only half damage to the target
(halve damage AFTER armor is accounted for). Hollow point ammo doubles
the resistance roll, but any damage that gets through does double damage
to the target. When determining the to-hit modifier for each weapon, use
the Unarmored modifier, regardless of what the target is wearing.
			       
				resistance vs
	armor type	melee	ballistic	laser
	----------	-----------------------------
	jack		1d6	1d6/3		0
	mesh		2d6	1d6/2		0
	plate*		3d6	1d6		1d6/3
	cloth		4d6	3d6		1d6
	flak vest	3d6	2d6		1d6/2
	combat		5d6	5d6		2d6
	ablat		1d6	1d6/2		3d6
	reflec		0	0		4d6
		*-not an official armor, but included for completeness

Starships:
- ----------

Fuel: By all means use the powerplant formula in High Guard: 0.01xPnxTonnage.
Also, the formula for determining jump fuel should use 0.05 rather than
0.1. Otherwise, the fuel required is (at least for my tastes) far too much.

Jumpdrives: I have a few optional rules for this. There are three enhancements
that a jump drive may have. The first (the Hawking Drive) allows the ship
to only be in jump for 3.5 days. This enchancemnt increases JD cost by 25%
and mass by 10%. The second (Biron Override) allows the ship to jump from
a gravity well with reduced hazards. Drop the penalties by 5. Cost of the
JD doubles and mass increases by 25%. The final enhancment (Liau Drive) allows
the JD to operate at approximately double its rating. Fuel consumption is
doubled, and there is a +1 to the mis-jump chance (+2 if the ship goes beyond
a jump-6). Cost and mass are as the Biron Override. Also, the drives must be
worked on for 1-3 hours after such a jump. If not worked on, roll a 9+ on
2d6 for the drive to fail when activated. For each forced maintanence missed,
lower this by 2. All three can be placed on the same jump drive. Also, ships 
under 100 tons CAN use jump drives, though cost is doubled. 

Character Generation:
- ---------------------

Skill Improvement:
To me, this is the one major area where Traveller is lacking. I have problems
with rules that basically state that a character can never improve skills
by experience. At the end of an adventure, the GM should look over each 
character's skills, and place a check by each one the GM felt the player
used in such a way that the character would have learned from it, or that
the character used a skill repeatedly under difficult situations. For
each skill with a check, the character must FAIL a roll of 5+(2*skill level).
For example, a character with Rifle-3 must roll a 12 to improve his skill.
Obviously, a character with a skill of 4+ cannot improve skills by mere
experience. They are so highly skilled that 'mundane experience' will fail
to help them, since they have few problems with even difficult situations.
These are the kinds of characters that must study to improve skills.

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3432
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1992 19:33:15 -0500
From: Stuart Willard Daniel <stuartd@huron.eecs.umich.edu>
Subject: Seeker Gaming Systems Deckplans


Howdy! I am a fairly new member of the TML, but I have a few
questions for those of you out there. I just purchased the SGS
25mm deckplans for the Empress Marava Far Trader and noticed
some very interesting things.

First off, the A2 far trader they describe displaces 400 tons! The
stats given in the book, although supposedly taken from the Imperial
Encyclopedia, are roughly as follows:

     400 tons, TL13, Power = Fusion 1665Mw.
     Loco is Jump-2, Maneuver-1.
     4 hardpoints are mounted, along with a 1/bis computer.
     10 staterooms and 4 low berths
     Fuel 1314 kl, Cargo 1188 kl, purif plant, etc.

What really bothers me about this, however, is the fact that the
deckplans are directly lifted from Supp. 7 Traders and Gunboats,
where the Empress Marava class was a 200 ton Far Trader! Thus, the
book gives deckplans for a 200-ton ship and stats for a 400-ton ship.

What I would like to know is if this "quality" is typical of all of
the deckplans produced by SGS.

One other note --- the deckplans come with a story, not an adventure
as I assumed from reading the blurb on the back. Also, the stats given
in the booklet are about 800 kl shy of 400 tons (at least from the
quick computations I did).


Sorry to whine, but I had to say something. This kind of quality
really upsets me.


Stuart Daniel
stuartd@eecs.umich.edu

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3433
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 92 07:33:59 CST
From: Cynthia_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US (Cynthia Higginbotham)
Subject: Rob Dean's Question

Rob Dean was wondering how many Spinward Marches worlds (pre-Rebellion) 
could be considered failing or doomed by Hard Times standards.
 
Well, Rob, here's your answer:
 
Failing Worlds:
 
Hex   Name             Upp        
- ----  ---------------  ---------  
0416  Retinae          E8C69AA-5                            
1918  Sonthert         X6266AB-3         
2236  Tsarina          D120636-5         
0533  Penelope         C460642-4          
1201  Ao-Dai           E410644-6           
2527  Pimane           E500343-4          
1305  Nakege           D591314-2          
2205  Enope            C411988-6         
2405  Keng             E2718CA-3            
0108  Gyomar           D8B2889-5         
1216  Stellatio        D5A4420-4          
1433  Noctocol         E7A5747-6         
2309  Yurst            E7B4643-5          
2510  Dhian            C9A769D-4         
1131  Faldor           E5936A7-2          
1519  Asgard           X3437C7-2          
1817  Victoria         X697772-2          
1939  Craw             C573645-3          
0739  Tondoul          E5136A7-4           
 
Doomed Worlds: 
 
Hex   Name             Upp       
- ----  ---------------  --------- 
3017  Heroni           E7A0614-3   
 
 
 
* Craw has a native race, and is probably not "failing" as far as they are
concerned.
* Victoria has a minor human race??  Likewise.

All these worlds with the above exceptions must be considered dependent on
massive offworld imports to maintain themselves.  Since at least one of
them,
Nakege, is a trade sink, how they manage to afford imports is a mystery to
me.

- -- Via DLG Pro v0.985b

cynthia_higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3434
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 92 08:05:03 CST
From: Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US (Steve Higginbotham)
Subject: Terra and the Long Night

I know this may sound like quibbling over details, but since when is a drop
from twelve to nine FOUR tech levels??? I always assumed that would only be
three tech levels.

I see no reason why Terra should have lost ANY TLs during the Long Night.
If merchant traffic continued, as implied in Supplement 10 (Solomani Rim),
then that traffic would have been J2 (probably), and state-of-the-art would
have been J3 (for the Navy, and possibly the pirates).
Since Terra was a high pop world, and center of a polity in its own right,
it probably used bulk carriers for MOST of it's off-world trade.  I cannot
imagine the pirate willing to attack an ARMED 20,000 ton ship.  I cannot
imagine the Terrans NOT arming their merchants in that situation.

The TL losses in Hard Times seem to deal largely with the long term effects
of nuclear bombardment of the planetary infrastructure.  Since none of that
occurred on Terra during the Long Night, Hard Times provides no valid
indicators of the effects of the Long Night on Terra.

BTW, as to the Nationalist question on Terra, note that 2300AD introduces a
plausible scenario for transportation of nationalism to the reaches of
known (and occasionally unknown) space.

And, to change the subject, has anyone noticed that Hard Times is entirely
humanocentric?  It assumes that any world with characteristics that make it
uninhabitable to humans will be "failing" or "dommed".  I'm sure any
non-human native race  would be surprised to discover they could no longer
live on their home planet since the TL has dropped.   After all, they
EVOLVED there for the local conditions, didn't they?

Which brings up the question of which worlds are homeworlds?
What minor races are out there that might use these "failing" and "doomed"
worlds as potential colonies now that the humans have gone home?

- -- Via DLG Pro v0.985b

Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US

I have learned to use the word "impossible" with the greatest caution.
                                    --W. von Braun

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3435
From: richard@agora.rain.COM (Richard Johnson)
Subject: Re:  (3317) Re: Starship Passengers and...
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 92 9:38:14 EST

Back to the trenches -- Richard has returned.  Sorry for the hiatus,
had a disk controller go TU and agora went down, and mid-winter feasting
etc.  Anyway - here's the first reply to my huge backlog.  Dated Dec.
19, A conversation between Rob Dean and me about starship econ 101 -
basically should it cost CR2000/mo for LIFE SUPPORT on a starship?


<Rob>
:> :What do you need to maintain life in space?  Food (cheap), air (cheaper),
:> :water (cheap), power (lots of it on a ship), specialized equipment (already
:> :included in the cost of the ship--extended life support isn't real cheap,
:> :plus we pay annual maintenance on it.)

<Me>
Of course you gotta lift 'em.  Which is why it's so damned expensive
now (TL7++).  But that's a feeble argument.

<Me back then> 
:> Well, if I were running a little passenger line between say Efate and
:> Bounghe, or some such, I'd also throw in:
:> 
:>    salaries of people aboard
:>    dead-head space (passengers who won't be there for a return flight)
:>    routine bribes
:>    PROFIT  (double all yer expenses...)

<Rob>
:In fact, all of these costs _are_ already included in the system.  (Well, OK,
:bribes would have to implemented by the GM, but that's no big deal.)  My
:objection is to paying Cr2000 per occupied stateroom, _just for the life
:support costs_, according to the rules.  A little extrapolation at those sorts
:of rates would probably be interesting when applied to something like a current
:SSBN, which may remain cruising submerged for a couple of months.

<Me (now)>
Ouch!  The idea that life support cost 2X to 4X a salary goes against
the sci-fi genre, IMHO.  This should be something already taken care
of -- sort of like item 1 in Maslow's heirarchy of needs.  We won't go
colonizing until we're sure we can survive on the way.

For MT:TNG why not something like just forgetting to include such a 
ridiculous feature?  Call it part of the engine and jull maintenance.
- -- 
Richard Johnson     richard@agora.rain.com
"We've learned a great deal about how to keep the American people
pacified."   Ex-CIA director William Colby after the Church hearings

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3436
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1992 12:13 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: Aslan and Nukes

Just a quick point:

There is no reason (other than military) that the Aslan couldn't use nukes
to clear a planet of unwanted inhabitants.  A nuclear damper (carried by
many of the Aslan warships) can clean a radioactive area quite quickly.

Sure the bombs would knock down all the buildings, but the Aslan don't
strike me as the types who would particularly care about that.

And if they did want to take an area intact, there are always neutron bombs.

Scott Kellogg
"Look out!  The Aslan Admiral's been smoking catnip!"

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3437
Date:    Fri, 10 Jan 1992 12:48:35 -0600 (CST)
From: A_COPEAB@CCSVAX.SFASU.EDU (Brandon Cope)
Subject: the optional rules, the game setting, big vs small ships

Whew, that was a long subject field...

Okay, first of all, there were a couple of errors and such in the optional
rules I sent for Old/Classic Traveller:
	(1) damage of the body pistol is 2d6, not 1d6
	(2) for the jump drive enhancement that allows it to jump
	double its normal factor, if the computer is too small, the
	jump can still be made, but it takes 10 times longer to compute
	the jump for each computer size under what is needed (so, for
	example, a factor 6 computer takes 10^6 (!) times longer to
	compute a jump-12 than a jump-6). Also, I would recommend that
	instead of using the myriad of jump programs, that there is just
	one astrogation program (say, use the Jump-3 program).
	(3) The 'one hardpoint per 100 tons' should be taken as a legal
	limit, not a practical one. A ship can mount as many hardpoints
	as desired, though the GM needs to do a reality check (and perhaps
	deck plans) to make sure they would all fit and still leave normal
	ship functions working fine.
There may be some other stuff, but I can't remember it off-hand.

Back when I fist started GMing Traveller back in late 1983, I decided to
do something that ended up really irking my main player (and a fellow
Traveller GM) -- I ignored the background and set my campaign 500 years
in the future, after the fall of the Third Imperium (actually, I was just
ahead of my time...). The player thought what I was doing was blasphemous,
and that I was ignoring the best part of the game. However, I had some good
reasons for doing so: while it required more work for me (in all the years
since, the campaign has never left the sector it started in, though), it
meant I wasn't dependant on material from GDW or related companies, and if
they made major changes to the background, I wouldn't have to alter my
campaign to be official, or to be able to use future products. As a side note,
no player after the first one was unhappy with me using my own setting.

As an off-shoot of the 'after-the-fall, the Second Long Night' campaign,
all the ships, were of neccessity, small. Face it, after a major war and
several minor ones destroyed most industrial planets, shipyards COULDN'T
produce 20,000 ton freighters or 100,000 ton cruisers. The largest ship
that is in any navy currently is a 6,000 ton 'dreadnaught'. Most heavy
cruisers are 1,000-2,000 tons. There are some bulk transports that are
about that size, but they are slow and unweildy, and sitting targets
for pirates unless escort is provided. Granted, in a campaign set 
in the early stages of the Rebellion, ship construction won't be TOO
severely effected, but by the late stages, few large ships will be built,
and most large ships already in service will no longer have ports to
get repaired at (having off course been destroyed during the Rebellion).
About the only thing that would keep total disaster from befalling the
old Imperium would be the independant merchants in their small (200-400 ton)
freighters, plying the shipping lanes between each war-ravaged planet. 
                 

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3438
From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Earth in the Long Night
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 92 17:14:05 GMT

d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se writes:
> 
>   My guess as to the effective TL of Terra during the Long Night is 9, since
> this is the lowest that supports jumptech. This is a fall of 4 units from 
> the C level they had at the end of the wars. Imagine the depression that can
> make a TL go down 4 units. It is like going from today to before the Wright
> brothers.

I never did take Maths to really advanced levels, so I might be wrong, but
isn't C supposed to represent decimal 12?  And if so, from C (12) to 9 is
a fall of 3 units.

Next, I've seen several references here to present day Earth being TL 8.
Has anyone succeeded in building a grav vehicle, even a simple air/raft?
Has anyone yet got a working fusion power plant?  If the answers to those
questions are both "no", then on what grounds can present day Earth be
awarded a TL rating of 8?

Finally, a fall of 3 levels from TL 7 to TL 4 is not the same as a fall of
3 levels from TL C to TL 9, any more than it is the same as a fall from
TL 4 to TL 1.  Going from TL C to TL 9, you don't lose any really big
abilities, you just can't do things as well.  A TL 9 society can still
build starships, just not very good ones.  On the other hand, the drop of
3 levels from TL 9 to TL 6 would mean you lose all space travel.  The drop
from TL 7 to TL 4 also means you lose all space travel and almost all air
travel, as well as all computers.

- -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3439
Date:    Fri, 10 Jan 1992 23:25:43 -0600 (CST)
From: A_COPEAB@CCSVAX.SFASU.EDU (Brandon Cope)
Subject: Traveller to GURPS

I won't post it to the list, since it isn't really appropriate, but...

If anyone is intrested in a very rough set of Traveller to GURPS conversion
notes (mainly for characters), let me know via private e-mail.

The address is:	A_COPEAB@CCSVAX.SFASU.EDU

Have a good weekend!
 

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3440
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Starport traffic
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 92 12:25:31 MET

My solution is to put 99.9 % of all trade into bulk carriers.
Huge ships starting at 10.000 tons, averaging 100.000 tons,
some of them reaching 500.000 tons. These ships would have
sceduled jumps planned for the next couple of decades, carrying
raw materials one way and finished goods the other. They would
never touch ground and the shuttes that service them would land
at special dedicated spaceports so they wouldn't interfere with
the luxury trade.

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "Come all brother spacemen that travel along.
         Oh, pray come and tell me where the trade is all gone.
         Long time have I travelled, and I cannot find none."
         Ch: "And sing: All the hard times of the Empire.
              In the Empire are very hard times."
                                Traditional song.

------------------------------

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Date: Wed Jan 15 21:00:11 PST 1992
From: traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com (TML Administrator)
Subject: TML Bundle #282: Table of Contents

-AMN- --Date--- --Sender--------- --Subject-----------------------------------
3441  11-Jan-92 Hans Rancke-Madse Terra and the Long Night << From: d9bertil@dt
3442  11-Jan-92 Hans Rancke-Madse Rob Deans question and Aslan & Nukes << >From
3443  11-Jan-92 uunet!popeet!wild Re: Imperial Economics << OK, I'm going to tr
3444  11-Jan-92 d9bertil@dtek.cha One level here one level there and pretty soo
3445  11-Jan-92 d9bertil@dtek.cha Re: Hard Times in the Domain (not really) << 
3446  11-Jan-92 bonnevil@stolaf.e Re: Old Earth Union << Despite current discus
3447  11-Jan-92 bonnevil@stolaf.e Re: Ihatei in Deneb << The obliteration of Ak
3448  11-Jan-92 d9bertil@dtek.cha Re: Terra and the Long Night << > That's wher
3449  11-Jan-92 Steve_Higginbotha our tech level << By the way, did anyone noti
3450  12-Jan-92 A_COPEAB@CCSVAX.S computers and earth's tech level << For a lon
3451  13-Jan-92 Hans Rancke-Madse The piracy of Hard Times. << >>Bertil: >>> Th
3452  13-Jan-92 Hans Rancke-Madse Terra during the Long Night << Steve Bonnevil

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3441
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Terra and the Long Night
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 92 12:47:06 MET

From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
>> From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>>
>> I'd go for a Safe myself. Remember, The Long Night was a slow
>> decay, not a catastrophic event. Step 1 of Hard Times hits the
>> high-population, good starport worlds hardest, but that's
>> because they were specifically targeted.

>  I interpret the Hard Times rules as that they are to be applied on *all*
>worlds inside the bounds of the Imperium. Worlds that are in Safe areas never
>touched by the tiniest trace of the war get the same treatment, but without
>the Frontier, Outland, Wilds, Warzone, Intense and Black Warzone DM's.

That's where you're going wrong. Check HT page 19:

"Note the worlds in areas that have not been affected by the Rebellion (Safe
areas were not in a War Zone) do not experience UWP changes; for them, life
continues much as it did before the Rebellion."

Me:
>> Try working
>> out the defenses of Terra: 10 billion inhabitants @ 500 credits
>> gives a yearly budget of 5 trillion credits. The fleet is
>> equivalent to 10 times that. Even if you put 99% of those ships
>> in ordinary to reflect a depressed economy, you still wind up
>> with 500.000 MCr worth of ships. The fleet that can challenge that
>> is not a raider fleet, it's a 3rd Imperium fleet.

Bertil:
>  There is no need to go in the hard way with blazing lasers and all that.
>All that is needed is that the threat of piracy is so big that merchants
>fear to travel,

But that is a contradiction in terms. Think about the history of seafaring on
Earth. You can't have pirates without merchants to prey on, and you don't
have merchants unless trade is profitable. You only have pirates where trade
is profitable _in spite_ of the pirates. As long as they have a secure base
merchants will be out there trading. The problem comes if you have raiders
that can plunder and destroy the home community (in this case Terra). And as
I've shown, the fleet that can challenge Earth is not a pirate fleet. And note
that I supposed a cut in fleet size of 99%. That's actually silly. We know
from examples all through history, up to and including today, that politicians
will allow their fellow citizens to starve sooner than cut defense spending.
As long as the pirates exists, Earth will maintain their fleet. Even if
trading become unprofitable. You don't need profits to maintain a military
fleet, just a not totally ruined economy.

>leading to economic recession and lesser demand for starships from the yards
>at the starport, leading to more pirates competing for fewer merchants, lead-
>ing to more desperate pirates, leading to more afraid merchants and so on.

>  There is no need for this to happen close to Terra. Anywhere within their
>economic sphere would be ok. As the merchants begin to neglect high risk
>routes the pirates will follow them inwards.

But Earth by itself can maintain a fleet that can protect the first 10 or 20
worlds. And I'm in complete agreement with Steve Higginbotham who say:

>I see no reason why Terra should have lost ANY TLs during the Long Night.
>If merchant traffic continued, as implied in Supplement 10 (Solomani Rim),
>then that traffic would have been J2 (probably), and state-of-the-art would
>have been J3 (for the Navy, and possibly the pirates).
>Since Terra was a high pop world, and center of a polity in its own right,
>it probably used bulk carriers for MOST of it's off-world trade.  I cannot
>imagine the pirate willing to attack an ARMED 20,000 ton ship.  I cannot
>imagine the Terrans NOT arming their merchants in that situation.

>The TL losses in Hard Times seem to deal largely with the long term effects
>of nuclear bombardment of the planetary infrastructure.  Since none of that
>occurred on Terra during the Long Night, Hard Times provides no valid
>indicators of the effects of the Long Night on Terra.

Bertil:
>  I seem to remember from the COACC book that the defences of Terra when the
>Rule of Man set off on it's own were primarily in-system assets. It is of
>course possible to build jump-capable ships to patrol the spacelanes, but
>the instance the total costs from the trade (including militart escorts) is
>greater than the gain of the trade to either the government or the merchants
>the trade will cease. And the colonies will be in deep dodo.

Nope. Military ships are a response to (percieved) threats. Profits dosen't
come into it, except insofar as somebody has to pay for the warships. Thus
profits will be welcomed by the government as a source of revenue, and since
they have the warships anyway, they will use them to protect trade. But
they'd've build the ships in any case.

>  [Btw: I'll expect that most of the piracy will cease during a Night as soon
>as the trade collapses totally. No sheep ->> starving wolves. The time for
>this to happen is ofcourse dependent on the rate of decline. As the decline
>into the Long Night were rather slow, pirates could have held out hundreds
>of years.]

Held out where? The pirate ships needs maintenance as much as any. Judging
from Hard Times they would be history in 5 to 10 years. Unless they based
themselves on a world with the technology to support them. But now they are
no longer just agents of destruction. However much they plague their sur-
roundings, they must at least help maintain their base planet. Even if they
manage to reduce every other world in the universe below jump capacity, their
own base must retain it. So now _they_ begin trading and empire-building.

Predators that outnumber the prey makes no sort of sense whatsoever (Which
makes me wonder where in h... all those 50.000 T vargr corsairs that overran
Corridor came from).

>Here is, quoted condensed and paraphrazed what Rats&Cats say
>about the Long Night:

>  The Long Night were less hard on the worlds in the Rim than those in the
>former ROM. Terra and Friends had relatively self-sufficient economies. At
>the center of ROM piracy and plunder were rampant.

Yeah, right. for about 10 years. (Sorry, go ahead :-)

>Terra and the original confederation worlds (probably about 40 parsecs radius
>from Terra) organized into the Terran Mercantile Community which reformed
>into a government in -1690. They had to protect their trade from pirates and
>renegade naval units from the center of ROM.
>  As time passes trade dry up except on a subsector level.

The average subsector in 1116 could support 132 trillion credit squadron's
worth of warships (or more propably 44 Sqs system defense boats, 44 Sqs
reserve fleet and 44 Sqs regular fleet). The average world population during
the Long Night would propably be lower, but even so...
Who's for a spot of piracy? Count me out.

>The TMC fail and Terra and 'the local community' (say 5 pc radius)

The worlds from Barnard to Forlorn and from Sirius to Dismal. Meshan
and (strangely enough) Agidda isn't included. (Strange because Aggida
is only two jump-2s from Terra and relatively far from Dingir.)

>organize
>into the Old Earth Union in -1110. Now some of the other ex-confederation
>states in Dark Nebula, Alpha Crucis, Magyar and Reaver's Deep begin to raid
>their neighbours closer to the center (of the Terran Confederation).

This makes much more sense, and is in fact the way I'd interpret the Long
Night and implement Hard Times. The polities will not fade away. They will
become a multitude of tiny trade spheres surrounded by Outlands where pirates
roam. Inside the polities bulk trade will be possible. Luxury trade between
polities will exist, plagued by pirates but still profitable enough for
adventurous merchants to attempt. Pirates will be based in friendly polities.
Raiding of polity frontier planets may occur, but any high-population world
will be too tough to touch.

I'd really like to know how much of your paraphrase is your interpretation and
how much is GDW revisions. I found a second-hand _Alien Module 6: Solomani_
yesterday and bought it (there's been a mix-up with _Cats&Rats_ and I've no
guarantee that my shop will manage to get it before it's sold out. Sigh!). It
tells the following about The Terran Merchantile [sic] Community and the Old
Earth Union: The TMC was a loose trade association formed by Terra and her
closest colonies under The Rule of Man that later grew into a corporation.
Ostensibly a purely commercial organisation, it was actually a means of
circumventing RoM prohibitions against member planets having their own navies.
The TMC built a merchant fleet that toed a very fine line between commercial
ships and naval vessels. The ships carried enough armament to protect
themselves from pirates and raiders, but not enough to classify them as naval
vessels. Their merchant fleet made Terra and her fellow worlds in the TMC
a formidable commercial force.
    When the Rule of Man collapsed, The Terran Mercantile Community had a
space fleet to patrol it's systems and to replace the now gone Second
Empire fleets. The TMC's merchant fleet cushioned the blow of the Long
Night and made it possible for Terra to survive in relative comfort.
    Well into the Long Night, the Terran Mercantile Community took over
political responsibilities and became an interstellar government  -  the
Old Earth Union.

This seems to be contradicted by the dates given:

        -1776   Collapse of Rule of Man.
        -1690   TMC established.
        -1110   Old Earth Union created.

But I think I can reconcile them. -1776 is an arbitrary date. Obviously the
RoM Rim government on Dingir held on for several centuries after losing
contact with Hub, keeping the peace and enforcing RoM regulations regardless
(Incidentally, _Solomani_ states that the Rim lost contact with Hub about
80 years before -1776). Thus the TMC was established to circumvent RoM
regulations a century after the RoM is said to have collapsed. In fact,
the Dingir RoM must have survived (at least in name) until -1110 (this
fits with another statement in _Solomani_ to the effect that the Easter
Concord and the Dingir League emerged at about that time).

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "Come all brother spacemen that travel along.
         Oh, pray come and tell me where the trade is all gone.
         Long time have I travelled, and I cannot find none."
         Ch: "And sing: All the hard times of the Empire.
              In the Empire are very hard times."
                                Traditional song.

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3442
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Rob Deans question and Aslan & Nukes
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 92 12:50:46 MET

>From: Cynthia_Higginbotham
>Rob Dean was wondering how many Spinward Marches worlds (pre-Rebellion)
>could be considered failing or doomed by Hard Times standards.

The answer is that Hard Times dosen't provide standards to work
out how the worlds of the Domain is affected by the hard times.
I still maintain that the Aslans would not nuke planets in the
Domain, despite what Scott Kellogg writes about Aslan and nukes:

>Just a quick point:
>There is no reason (other than military) that the Aslan couldn't use nukes
>to clear a planet of unwanted inhabitants.  A nuclear damper (carried by
>many of the Aslan warships) can clean a radioactive area quite quickly.

True. I hadn't thought about that. That makes nuking just as
plausible as biowar weapons. Would _you_ nuke a planetful of
humans and then settle your family on it for the retaliatory
strike to crisp? Or would you confidently expect the humans to
be reasonable about it and not nuke innocent females and cubs?

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "Come all brother spacemen that travel along.
         Oh, pray come and tell me where the trade is all gone.
         Long time have I travelled, and I cannot find none."
         Ch: "And sing: All the hard times of the Empire.
              In the Empire are very hard times."
                                Traditional song.

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3443
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 92 00:36:57 EST
From: uunet!popeet!wildstar@sequent.UUCP (Derek Wildstar)
Subject: Re: Imperial Economics


OK, I'm going to try to clarify the analysis I did on the Imperium last
week, but first I have some more data to throw into the mix.

The Feb 1992 issue of Railfan and Railroad has an article on the Duluth,
Missabe, and Iron Range railroad.  The DM&IR has been around (in one form
or another) for over 100 years, and makes its living doing one thing: hauling
iron ore down from the Minnesota mountains (the Missabe and Iron Range mountains
to be exact) to the Lake Superior ore docks at Duluth and Two Harbors.  In its
worst year (1932, during the Great Depression) the DM&IR carried 1,500,000 tons
of ore.  Ten years later, in 1942, its peak wartime haulage was 42,788,199
tons.  The all-time high occurred in 1953, during the post-war boom, and was
a record 49,317,625 tons of ore.  Current traffic is around 20,000,000 tons.
Iron ore (at first, soft iron ore; but recently taconite pellets) is a good
bit more dense than the MegaTraveller "average" of 1 ton per cubic meter.

Assuming a number of mines, a good mining planet should be able to produce
ore exports of this magnitude (let's say about a million tons a week).  Most
planets would probably pre-process the ore to some degree (taconite pellets
are the end-result of pre-processing low-grade iron ore; the DM&IR's
customers started shipping this when the soft iron ore played out in the 
late 50's and 60's).  Assuming that taconite is about two metric tons
to the cubic meter (and I actually have no idea what its density is), then
about 80 of my "standard" shiploads are generated each week for the ore
trade.

Now to get on to those questions.  First off, what about my starport
traffic breakdowns?  In particular, why do Class A ports handle so much of
the load?  Isn't the major distinction between a Class A and B port the
presence of starship building capability?

Well, yes.  The difference between a Class A and a Class B port is, by
definition, that the A port can build starships and the B cannot.  However,
we need to answer the question "Why doesn't every TL-9+ planet have a
starship construction capability?  After all, they have the technical
knowledge".  In the vast majority of cases, the answer has to be that it is
not economically feasable; in other words, such a yard would not make a 
profit, given the expense of setting up and running one.  OK, so why can't
it make a profit?  Because there is a low demand for new ships.  One good
reason for this is that the yard is far enough off of the most important
and heavilly travelled trade lanes to make buyers hesitate.

Reversing the above argument, starship construction facilities are located
where the demand for new ships is highest.  Since I assumed that 90% of the
demand for new ships is to replace old ships, it follows that the highest
demand is where the largest numbers of ships are.  The largest number of
ships is likely to be at major producers or consumers of goods (generally
high population, high tech worlds) or at trade junction points, where
long-distance trade converges or crosses.

Therefore, Class A ports probably have the highest trade activity, too.

The logic for Class B ports is similar; they are located where the demand for
starship overhauls is high, but where the demand for new ships is not as
high.  These worlds are probably on trade routes, or are important enough
that many ships call, but not as much as the Class A ports.

Class B ports are ones that "almost" make Class A, but for some factor.
Trade activity is high, but not as high as that around a Class A port.

I decided that Class C ports were "average" (and this category probably
exhibits the largest variation in trade level of any of the categories).
Not enought traffic to justify construction of Class B or A shipyards, but
enough trade that all of the basics are present.

As Class B ports are to Class A, so are Class D to Class C.  For one reason
or another, these ports just don't measure up.

Class E are substandard; presumably there is not enough trade to justify the
expense of installing anything but the most minimal of facilities.  Remeber
that a Class E port is as low as it can get and still be considered a
functional port.

Class X indicates no port present.  I probably set the traffic level way too
high.  Alternatively, you can assume that these ships are "just passing
through" on their way to another destination, and have stopped for wilderness
refueling or as a midpoing layover on a double jump.

You can play around with the numbers; I think I provided enough information
that anyone can set some trade percentages and come up with some new traffic
levels.  The major point to remember is that Starports exist to support a
level of trade; they will be as large and comprehensive (and expensive) as
the customer base can support.

It bears pointing out that the levels of trade vary dramatically from one
region to another.  For example, the Solomani Rim sector has 25% of the
starship construction capacity in mapped space.  Old Expanses is next with
14%, while the Spinward Marches is somewhere around the middle with 2%.
Zarushag is at the bottom with 0.12%.  For reference, Core is about even with
the Marches (2%) while Vland is slightly better (3%), and Deneb is near the
bottom with 0.35%.  The tech level distribution also varies widely; although
the Massilia sector has only 4% of the starship construction capacity, it has
35% of the TL-16 Class A ports.

The Imperial tax rate came from some information given in Striker Book 2.
On page 38, it mentions that "The average expenditure of a nation or world
on its military is 3% of its GNP", and later mentioned that "On Imperial
worlds, roughly 30% of the total military budget goes to the Imperium for
maintenance of the Imperial military".  From my feelings about the way
the Imperium worked, I decided that the Imperial budget was mainly 
defense spending, and created a budget accordingly.  I *DID* warn you that
it was made up out entirely out of my own head, didn't I?  I got the 1% figure
from 0.9% (military spending; actually 0.8856% as of the last budget) and 
about 0.1% (non-military programs; actually 0.1144% in the budget).

"Local Credits" were converted to "Imperial Standard Credits" using the table
on page 39 of Striker (a matrix of TL and Starport type; no, I'm not going
to type it in right now, its already late).  Imperial Credits were assumed to
be based on a TL-15, Port A standard.

The Gross Planetary Products were created using the same rules (Page 38 of
Striker Book 2).  A base per-capita GPP is given (2kCr at TL-5, +2kCr per
TL over TL-5) on a table, and multiplied by the population of the world.
Six multipliers applied, depending on the trade status of the world (for
example, multiply the GPP of "Rich" worlds by 1.6).

In general, I thought the GPP rules to be reasonable.  The taxation rule is
a little over-simplified, but not bad.  If these rules are ever revised,
more multipliers might not be a bad idea, and taxation modifiers for
government type would also be a good ting.

The starport capacity figures are taken from Trillion Credit Squadron, where
they were created for an entirely different purpose.  (Actually, I am quite
shure that the TCS starport capacity figures were never meant to apply to
civillian shipping, and are *QUITE*WRONG* the way I have used them).  On the
other hand, they are also the only things available.

A table is given of government types and multipliers.  To figure the port
capacity, multiply the world population by the multiplier, and divide by
1000 (TCS, page 33).

On the other hand, I believe the construction time table given on the same
page is probably still accurate.

By the way, the analysis I originally posted, along with three statistical
abstracts of the data I used (basic frequency tables, sector statistics, and
starport/tech breakdowns) are currently stored in files here in my account.
Given these files, just about anyone with a spreadsheet program could do the
kind of speculation I have been doing.

Unfortunately, I do not have FTP access from here.  Does anybody want to 
have me E-Mail them there, so you can put them up on a FTP server?

Wildstar

"... I'll see you on the Dark Side of the Moon!" -- Pink Floyd


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3444
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: One level here one level there and pretty soon they start to add up!
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 92 17:02:28 MET

> From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
> Subject: (3438) Re: Earth in the Long Night
> 
> I never did take Maths to really advanced levels, so I might be wrong, but
> isn't C supposed to represent decimal 12?  And if so, from C (12) to 9 is
> a fall of 3 units.

  Ehum, yes, as you and others have pointed out:)
 
> Next, I've seen several references here to present day Earth being TL 8.
> Has anyone succeeded in building a grav vehicle, even a simple air/raft?
> Has anyone yet got a working fusion power plant?  If the answers to those
> questions are both "no", then on what grounds can present day Earth be
> awarded a TL rating of 8?

  I got the UPP for Earth Now straight from the Traveller Book. I don't have
anything else but Hard Times and S&A with me now, but the conversion charts 
in 3G^3 talks about 'caseless ammo' and simple laser weapons as the top of
the tech at TravellerTL 8.

  As for the lack of anti-grav, it is well known that the Solomani is lacking
in that area:) Both old 'Robots' and S&A mentions that Solomani gravitics fall
one or more TLs behind.

>  Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs

- -bertil-
- -- 
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3445
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re: Hard Times in the Domain (not really)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 92 17:08:56 MET

> From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
> Subject: (3429) Hard times in the Domain (really?)
> 
> Robert S. Dean writes:
> 
> > Could someone out there with the computer files at hand see how many worlds
> > in the Spinward Marches are "failing" or "doomed" by Hard Times standards
> > before everything comes apart?

  As Hans pointed out to me, worlds in Safe areas suffer no effects from the
Hard Times that can be noticed on their UWP. Therefore most of the Marches
will hardly notice it. 

  "I find these 'Hard Times' vastly overrated. As long as Efate, Pixie and
Regina remain unchanged the rest can fall into the rift for all I care!"
  - Preben Mo"ller
:)

>       Hans Rancke

- -bertil-
- -- 
"Who stole the hill?"
"Joe Tack!"
  - Old Swedish greeting.

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3446
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 92 12:50:31 CST
From: bonnevil@stolaf.edu (Steven Bonneville)
Subject: Re:  Old Earth Union


Despite current discussion, I don't think that the old information about the
Old Earth Union (OEU) and the new are contradictory.  The impression I get
from the new material (S&A) is this:

During the 2nd Empire, Earth operated a trade alliance called the Terran
Mercantile Community.  When the ROM fell, this alliance evolved into a local
government to take its place, by about -1690.  The TMC was able to continue
much as it had during the ROM, trading with its neighbors, and defending
itself from occasional piratical raids.  This government included many, if
not most, of the original Terran Confederation member worlds at first.

Gradually, isolationism and introspection caused the TMC to deteriorate.
Terra and her neighbors concentrated their interests on the subsector level.
When the TMC broke up in -1110, several new, more local governments took
*its* place, among them the OEU, Dingir League, and Easter Concord, centered
around HiPop worlds that maintained interstellar technology.

Note that, while piracy might have been a contributing factor to the end of
the TMC, I don't think it was the *primary* factor.  The Reaver's era ended
shortly BEFORE the end of the TMC, and Reaver attacks seem to have
concentrated on fringe worlds that had lost interstellar technology.  Note
that the Reaver states were governments that had retained this technology
and in some cases, their recolonization of devastated worlds may have actually
preserved knowlege from a world which was doomed before -- those that were
easy pickings for them.  I think that it was economic depression that was the
primary factor in this deterioration, and a trend toward isolationism, and
a shift to intraplanetary trade due to the expense of interplanetary trade.

Why did the Terrans abandon all settlements except for the Earth-Moon area?
I don't know.  I think that might be slightly incorrect.  Most outer colonies
probably weren't worth the trouble of defending, or maintaining.  A refining
station in orbit around Jupiter, might, but it wouldn't exactly be a colony.
The Belt would, but mining was also going on at Luna, which was much closer
to the manufacturing stations.  Again, Belt operations might not require a
permanent colony anyway, at least at the level which the Terran economy
was operating at.  Independent, transient mining vessels could move out, find
a rock, and tow it safely home for processing.

However, Luna was being developed.  Marc Miller wrote an article on Luna a
few years back when he mentions that the Plato settlement, I believe, held
its atmosphere in with a gravitic dome that had been operating continuously
built during the Long Night!  Now that's impressive.  There was still good work
going on at Terra, just at a smaller scale and in a more insular fashion.

Anyway, I just wanted to add my two bits worth to this discussion.

- --Steve


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3447
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 92 12:57:22 CST
From: bonnevil@stolaf.edu (Steven Bonneville)
Subject: Re:  Ihatei in Deneb


The obliteration of Aki still confuses me...the ihatei can't be that stupid,
can they?  How will the colonists there ever be able to trade peacefully with
their neighbors, unless they intend to commit xenocide on all their neighbors?
Besides, such an attack smacks of dishonorable tactics in any case -- the
prey never stood a chance of a fair fight.

The population pressure is there, though.  There are a few worlds in the 
Hierate that are very small in surface area and have populations pushing
the hundred billions mark -- I've seen worlds at ninety, ninety-one billion
there.  What is the most crowded world anybody's seen, anyway?

- --Steve

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3448
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re: Terra and the Long Night
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 92 20:08:13 MET

> That's where you're going wrong. Check HT page 19:
> 
> "Note the worlds in areas that have not been affected by the Rebellion (Safe
> areas were not in a War Zone) do not experience UWP changes; for them, life
> continues much as it did before the Rebellion."

  I missed that one before. It is much more visible when it is pointed out:)
 
> Bertil:
> >  There is no need to go in the hard way with blazing lasers and all that.
> >All that is needed is that the threat of piracy is so big that merchants
> >fear to travel,
> 
> But that is a contradiction in terms. Think about the history of seafaring on
> Earth. You can't have pirates without merchants to prey on, and you don't
> have merchants unless trade is profitable. You only have pirates where trade
> is profitable _in spite_ of the pirates.

  The piracy of Hard Times, or the Long Night, isn't a stable situation. It is
a dynamic story. A high number of 'loose cannons' turn to piracy, leading to a
decline in commerce, leading to more loose cannons and less prey to feed them,
leading to more desperate pirates attacking a larger percentage of shipping,
leading to a decline in commerce and so on in an ever depressing spiral until
trade is gone and the pirates starve or get their own planets.

> Held out where? The pirate ships needs maintenance as much as any. Judging
> from Hard Times they would be history in 5 to 10 years. Unless they based
> themselves on a world with the technology to support them. But now they are
> no longer just agents of destruction. However much they plague their sur-
> roundings, they must at least help maintain their base planet.

  I totally agree with you that piracy will be gone pretty soon after a
Night has fallen unless there is some commerce to feed it. This state will
probably be reached in a few years with Hard Times unless the pirates can
locate suitable bases where they can get maintainance. The importance of
fences and yards to pirates were analyzed rather nicely in "The Ecology of
Piracy on the Spinward Main" in an early JTAS. I think it was one of the 
Keiths that wrote that one.

  The Strephonian Imperium had reached a balance between merchants, navy and
pirates. Now that balance is gone and rampant piracy and such things are 
signs of an ecology that is looking for a new balance. There are however 
'waterholes in the desert of ruined planets' where pirates can survive on
the fringes and that is the small interstellar states. They will be much more
scarce because of the relatively low volume of shipping compared with the
old Imperium.

  That is what I think happened during the Long Night. The outer areas of 
ROM *and* the ex-Confederation were organized enough to provide maintainance
to pirates that pirated on other polities (aka letters of marque) to enable
the pirates to live through the dusk. Since the fall in Hard Times were so
much faster, the pirates will be gone faster too.

> Predators that outnumber the prey makes no sort of sense whatsoever (Which
> makes me wonder where in h... all those 50.000 T vargr corsairs that overran
> Corridor came from).

  Probably ex-navy ships from some of the Vargr states bordering the Imperium
with crews that got bored running routine patrols:)

> I'd really like to know how much of your paraphrase is your interpretation and
> how much is GDW revisions.
>     When the Rule of Man collapsed, The Terran Mercantile Community had a
> space fleet to patrol it's systems and to replace the now gone Second
> Empire fleets. The TMC's merchant fleet cushioned the blow of the Long
> Night and made it possible for Terra to survive in relative comfort.
>     Well into the Long Night, the Terran Mercantile Community took over
> political responsibilities and became an interstellar government  -  the
> Old Earth Union.

  Direct quote:
  "In time even the TMC faltered, with Terra falling back into a local trading
community of worlds and reorganizing as the Old Earth Union."

>       Hans Rancke

>         "Come all brother spacemen that travel along.
>          Oh, pray come and tell me where the trade is all gone.
>          Long time have I travelled, and I cannot find none."
>          Ch: "And sing: All the hard times of the Empire.
>               In the Empire are very hard times."
>                                 Traditional song.
  Hope you'll sing it on Gothcon:)

- -bertil-
- -- 
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3449
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 92 13:03:18 CST
From: Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US (Steve Higginbotham)
Subject: our tech level

By the way, did anyone notice on Headline News a few weeks back when they
did a piece on a Data Display Headset?  Seems that the military, and
business communities are starting to use a device that is, essentially, a
data display headset and portable (paperback book sized) computer.
It cost less than $800 (about one-third what MT charges for them), and is
here now (as opposed to TL12).
Interesting...

- -- Via DLG Pro v0.985b

Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US

I have learned to use the word "impossible" with the greatest caution.
                                    --W. von Braun

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3450
Date:    Sun, 12 Jan 1992 0:17:15 -0600 (CST)
From: A_COPEAB@CCSVAX.SFASU.EDU (Brandon Cope)
Subject: computers and earth's tech level

For a long time it has bothered me that regardless of the tech level of the
planet is bought on, computers have the same cost, weight, and proccessing 
ability. If you look at a computer of today and one of 20 years ago that have
the same proccessing power, you will notice that the more recent ones are much
smaller and much less expensive. There is a simple was to recreate this in
Classic Traveller (and perhaps MT, if it doesn't have rules for it already)
which is taken (in modified form) from GURPS Space: for every three tech 
levels past introduction, a computer's cost and weight will be cut by one-half.
This means that a model/1 computer at TL15 is dirt cheap and incredibly small 
(Cr 250,000, and a volume of 1/8 ton (or about 1.69 cubic meters)). In 
actuality, the reduction in size and cost should decrease even faster, but if
it were halved at EVERY tech-level, the model/1 would cost a whopping Cr 1953
and have a volume of 0.013 cubic meters! If desired, the mass (or cost) could
be held constant, and the cost (or mass) and proccessing ability varied. For
processing ability, double the capacity for every three additional TLs. 

As far as Earth's tech level being 8 or not, that might be based on the maximum
extent of our current abilities. Remember that each tech level encompasses a
large amount of time; it would not be unreasonable to assume that we are
at the beginning of TL 8 (some of the items at TL 8 we have, some we don't --
just because a world is listed at a certian TL doesn't mean that ALL the
sciences are at that level -- there is nothing to stop a planet from having
TL15 drives on their ships with TL13 heavy weapons and their marines armed
with TL12 personal weapons and armor -- each of which represents the peak
of the planet's development in each area).

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brandon Cope                               ! "Every way I turn my eyes
Student Consultant, Stephen F. Austin State!  Shadows pass in the night
A_COPEAB@ccsvax.sfasu.edu                  !  Haunted by reality
Z_COPEAB@CCSVAX.SFASU.EDU                  !  Living out of dreams
- -------------------------------------------!  Nothing is the way it seems"
a generous and sadistic DM	           !        Alan Parsons Project      
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3451
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: The piracy of Hard Times.
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 92 10:54:07 MET

>>Bertil:
>>> There is no need to go in the hard way with blazing lasers and all that.
>>>All that is needed is that the threat of piracy is so big that merchants
>>>fear to travel,
>>
>>But that is a contradiction in terms. Think about the history of seafaring
>>on Earth. You can't have pirates without merchants to prey on, and you
>>don't have merchants unless trade is profitable. You only have pirates
>>where trade is profitable _in spite_ of the pirates.
>
>  The piracy of Hard Times, or the Long Night, isn't a stable situation.

IMO you cannot compare the Long Night and Hard Times. The absense of
malignant destruction of high-population worlds prior to the Long Night
makes for two radically different situations.

It is also my contention that a high-population world (of sufficiently
high (ie. spacefaring) tech level) can defend itself against anything
short of the fleet of another high-population world (or equivalent league
of medium-pop worlds). Thus any high-pop world that survives the war years
relatively intact will be the center of an island of civilization. Mind
you, the civilization may not be all that deep. Many polities will become
reaver states, preying on neighboring polities. But they will not fade away.
Some may fall by the wayside, but the others, those that caused them to
fail, will themselves be the stronger for it. Oh, here and there some
polities will be so equally matched that they will destroy each other,
but not everywhere. Not even in most places.

Bertil:
>It is a dynamic story. A high number of 'loose cannons' turn to piracy,
>leading to a decline in commerce, leading to more loose cannons and less
>prey to feed them, leading to more desperate pirates attacking a larger
>percentage of shipping, leading to a decline in commerce and so on in an
>ever depressing spiral until trade is gone and the pirates starve or get
>their own planets.

But unless those 'loose cannons' are really, really huge, they won't be able
to touch the high-population worlds, nor the worlds closest to that HP world.

(The "deadly menace" of Indro the Lightless and his motley band of corsairs
and converted freetraders is completely ridiculous. If you define a patrol
as 5000 T worth of naval ships (more than a match for Indro's squadron), then
the worlds of Khavle and Pasdaruu subsectors can support approx. 9300 patrols
(something less than that if you convert local currency into Crimp (Credit,
Imperial) and insist on paying the patrols in Crimp). GDW has very little
sense of proportions wrt. interstellar communities.)

What's that? Where did those patrols come from? Note that I said support, not
build. How about some AWOL imperial squadrons? Otherwise, Westfir can build
900 400 T ships (or 130 patrols) in 28 weeks. That's two patrols for every
last world in the two subsectors, down to the most useless of them.

To resume: A HP world will be able to protect itself _and_ several trade
partners against anything short of a full fleet.

Now, there may be a few full fleets that have gone 'loose'. It sounds very
plausible. Certainly desertion will not confine itself to the measly 1000 T
vessels that _Hard Times_ implies. But such a fleet would be painfully
concious of the need for repairs and overhauls. Such a fleet would IMO
loose no time in taking over (as opposed to plundering) a suitable world.
(Or several suitable worlds, in which case we have a ready-made polity).
>From there it may begin raiding neighbouring polities, making a deadly
nuisance of itself and possibly causing the destruction of them. But the
trade it's own world could then flourish under it's protection.

To conclude: The Imperium has fragmented, and there seems no way of putting
Humpty Dumpty together again. But there is a limit to how small the fragments
will become.

And we haven't even examined how the various Safes will excersise a restrain-
ing effect on piracy. If England could send it's fleets halfway across the
world to protect the East India and China trade, then the Duchy of Delphi (or
whatever Margaret calls it) can send it's fleets to protect the Khavle trade.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "And now to conclude and to finish my song:
         Let us hope that these hard times they will not last long.
         I hope soon to have occasion to alter my song.
         And sing: All the good times in the Empire.
         In the Empire is jolly good times!"
                                Last verse of traditional song.

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3452
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Terra during the Long Night
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 92 10:59:16 MET

Steve Bonneville asks:

> Why did the Terrans abandon all settlements except for the Earth-Moon area?

Note that that is all settlements in the Sol system. Terra
didn't abandone it's old colonies in the neighbouring systems.
Economics, I suppose. Trading with the colonies was profitable,
maintaining the outer system settlements wasn't.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "Come all brother spacemen that travel along.
         Oh, pray come and tell me where the trade is all gone.
         Long time have I travelled, and I cannot find none."
         Ch: "And sing: All the hard times of the Empire.
              In the Empire are very hard times."
                                Traditional song.

------------------------------

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-AMN- --Date--- --Sender--------- --Subject-----------------------------------
3453  13-Jan-92 Hans Rancke-Madse Ihatei in the Domain << Steven Bonneville wri
3454  13-Jan-92 Hans Rancke-Madse Vargr raiders in the Domain << I wrote: >>Pre
3455  13-Jan-92 KELLOGG@ducvax.au General Android Series << Hey guys! Anybody r
3456  13-Jan-92 KELLOGG@ducvax.au Cargo Lifters << Hey Fans, Today is a day to 
3457  13-Jan-92 Adrian Hurt       Re: our tech level << d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.
3458  13-Jan-92 KELLOGG@ducvax.au Fitting Combat Armor (male and female) << Hey
3459  13-Jan-92 KELLOGG@ducvax.au GEnie wish list addendum: Micro-Electronics <
3460  14-Jan-92 Hans Rancke-Madse Fitting Battle Dresses << Scott Kellogg write
3461  14-Jan-92 PHB100@PSUVM.PSU. Testing << this is a test. ---------- In the 
3462  14-Jan-92 richard@agora.rai If the (Battle) Dress Fits... << Scott Kellog
3463  14-Jan-92 Nicholas Sylvain  Sexist Battledress << In response to Scott Ke
3464  14-Jan-92 A_COPEAB@CCSVAX.S male and female armor and vacc suits << Hmm, 
3465  14-Jan-92 A_COPEAB@CCSVAX.S tech levels << Another thing to throw into th
3466  15-Jan-92 grue@cs.uq.oz.au  Change of email address << Due to some unfort

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3453
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Ihatei in the Domain
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 92 12:29:45 MET

Steven Bonneville writes:
>
>The obliteration of Aki still confuses me...the ihatei can't be that stupid,
>can they?

You wouldn't think so, would you? Btw. did they obliterate Aki? Wasn't that
some other place? My impression was that they _invaded_ Aki  -  which makes
even less sense. Try controlling 40 billion humans armed to tek 10 even if
you've got tek 12 or 13. Go on, I dare you! :-)

>The population pressure is there, though.  There are a few worlds in the
>Hierate that are very small in surface area and have populations pushing
>the hundred billions mark -- I've seen worlds at ninety, ninety-one billion
>there.  What is the most crowded world anybody's seen, anyway?

True. I've rechecked my calculations, and I have to retract my earlier
contention that the ihatei couldn't possibly be a threat to the Domain.
Not only could they be a huge threat, pontentially they could roll up the
Domain and carry it away.

The numbers involved in ihatei export is at the same time ridiculously small
and staggeringly huge. According to my calculations an aslan world can afford
to outfit 0.0027 % of it's population each year, or 0.08 % in 30 years. That's
_one twelfth of one percent_ of each generation. That can't provide any kind
of relief except psycological. Not that psycological relief isn't important.

But when you combine the ihatei fleets of 7000 aslan worlds you get quite
a lot. Figuring on one 10.000 T cruiser escort for each 50.000 T colony
transport, the naval vessels of one year's worth of ihatei works out as the
equivalent of 16.280 trillion credit squadrons!

An avarage subsector can support 132 TCRs (in my campaign I divide that into
1/3 for system defenses, 1/3 for reserve (subsector) fleets and 1/3 for
regular fleets, but let's say everything is regular fleets). The Domain
of Deneb contained approx. 25 subsectors before the troubles. That's
equivalent to 3300 TCRs. True, the regular ships would be superior to the
obsolescent ihatei ships, but 16.280 TCRs of obsolescent ships could roll
over that and leave nothing but a smear...

Fortunately not every ihatei ship would go to the Domain:

1) Over half of the hierate is further from the Domain that they are from
   the Hierate's rimward border and would go there instead.

2) Most ihatei ships are jump-3. The logistics of getting a J3 fleet across
   the J5 route of the Great Rift are horrendous. I guess that the clans
   that control the route have a lot of huge jump shuttles, but using them
   would cost money, so the ihatei that are more or less the same distance
   from the Domain and the rimward border would go for the border.

3) The ihatei near Reaver's Deep need no longer consider the Imperium a
   deterrent to settling there. I would suppose that the Aslan would be all
   over Reaver's Deep like a coat of paint! (And why dosen't that show on
   the _Hard Times_ maps?) That's another big chunk of ihatei that won't
   want to cross the Rift.

4) Once across the Rift the ihatei are closer to Beyond and Touchstone
   Sectors than to the Domain parts of Trojan Reach. And there is a 10-12
   parsec buffer zone between the Domain and the Aslan worlds in Trojan
   Reach. The Domain Fleet may have deterred the Aslan from settling
   there earlier, but now?

5) Building an ihatei fleet and sending it 50-100 parsecs away across a
   rift is wasteful. You'll never see it again, so you only get rid of one
   fleetload of ihatei. You could export many more if you just moved into
   the neighbouring system and started shuttling ihatei in. And of course
   your neighbour is in the same position. We know that all through the
   Long Night the Aslan clans were unable to cooperate and that they've kept
   feuding ever since then. Any Lakht Aorlakht to the contrary notwithstand-
   ing, the Aslans are going to spend most of their strength fighting each
   other. And a good thing too. Otherwise, geometric progression being what
   it is, the entire Charted Space would be hip-deep in Aslans in another
   couple of thousand years.

With all these variables involved we can pretty much tailor the strength of
the ihatei to represent any level of threath to the Domain that we want.
(Especially as we're told that some ihatei fleets have been hanging around
for years). If we want the Aslans to conquer the rimward subsectors of the
Domain, then we can adjust the numbers accordingly. Except for one thing:
The Aslans are not a united people. Where the Domain forces are under a
unified command, the Aslan are split into 4000 clans (with subclans
rebelling to become new clans all the time  -  and there's another source
of Aslan weakening). Now, regardless of the number of ihatei, the Domain
can destroy the first dozen fleets. By then they may not be in a position
to do much about the next dozen, true. But what ihatei admiral is going to
allow the Lakht Aorlakht to make his fleet one of the first dozen? And the
first fleets _are_ going to be clobbered (A wise domain admiral will destroy
or capture the cruisers and escort the transports back across the border.
Then that fleet will be at a _huge_ disadvantage vis a vis other ihatei
fleets. What Aslan admiral is going to risk that?).

Well, perhaps if there were no alternative, the ihatei would be desperate
enough to try. But what's wrong with Beyond, Touchstone, Vanguard Reaches,
Iphigenaia, Fulani, Theron, Astron, Theta Borealis and points spinward?
There may be interstellar states there too, but surely not any worse than
a Domain that represents 25 subsectors?

Incidentally, can't you just see all those ihatei fleets meekly following
the directions of the Lakht Aorlakht? "OK, Admiral A, you go and invade
that Aslan-prime world, and you, Admiral B, you get this world with the
fluid oceans. Sorry, there aren't enough A-prime worlds to go around, but
I'm sure you'll be satisfied with that one." :-)

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "And now to conclude and to finish my song.
         Let us hope that these hard times, they will not last long.
         I hope soon to have occasion to alter my song;
         and sing: All the good times of the Empire.
              In the Empire are jolly good times."
                                Last verse of traditional song.

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3454
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Vargr raiders in the Domain
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 92 13:15:09 MET

I wrote:
>>Predators that outnumber the prey makes no sort of sense whatsoever (Which
>>makes me wonder where in h... all those 50.000 T vargr corsairs that overran
>>Corridor came from).

Bertil replied:
>  Probably ex-navy ships from some of the Vargr states bordering the Imperium
>with crews that got bored running routine patrols:)

Superficially plausible, but think about it a bit. You're the Domain admiral
in charge of the coreward border and these 50.000 T raiders starts to appear.
What do you do?

1) You dispose your available forces to protect your worlds. 50.000 T
   raiders won't attack small worlds, because there's simply not enough
   loot to satisfy the crew (or pay for the yearly maintenance). Nor
   will they attack HP worlds, because the planetary defenses would be
   too tough (look at the size of the Vargr border states. Most of them are
   no larger than half a subsector). And a Vargr state wouldn't let all
   it's ships go raiding at the same time. Because why? Because then the
   Vargr on their coreward side would raid _them_.

2) You put your spies to the task of finding out where what fleet is
   based. It's the old problem of refit and maintenance. 500 T corsairs
   can hide out anywhere. 5000 T raiders may be able to masquerade as
   merchant ships (at least with local connivance). But there are only
   so many places where you can overhaul a 50.000-tonner. And you can't
   hide it either, at least not when it's being overhauled.

3) You lodge formal protests with the governments of all the neighbouring
   Vargr worlds and inform them that you're holding them responsible for
   controlling any ships refitting in their shipyards. (Yes, I know that
   they can't. So what?)

4) You gather a fleet big enough to deal with the biggest single world
   in the adjacent Vargr subsectors. We're told that the rimward fleets
   were sent coreward to help, but that's really not necessesary. There
   are 12 sub-sectors in the Domain that dosen't border on any border.
   Let's take the regular fleets from them. That's 528 trillion credit
   squadrons, or the equivalent of the _full_ forces of 4 subsectors.

5) When the fleet is ready you take it for a tour of the neighbouring
   Vargr worlds that have supplied any raiders. You inform them that
   you don't like that and destroy their spaceyards. No need to get
   involved in messy ground operations. Spaceyards capable of dealing
   with 50.000 T ships are highly visible. Most of them are in orbit
   to boot.

6) Then you go home. (No you don't, come to think about it. You go on
   and re-integrates Corridor into the Domain. (And this time you
   rectify an inexplicable mistake of the early 3rd Imperium and
   grab all the worlds between the Great Rift and the Windhorn,
   instead of stopping at the coreward border of the Sectors ;-))

Result:

A) Any ships that survived the visit will need to go elsewhere to get
   their next refit. The worlds that didn't get their spaceyards
   squashed will need theirs to support their own ships, and they will
   not be enourmously willing to help raiders any more. So the Vargr
   fight it out and are to busy to bother the Domain.

B) The neighbouring Vargr raiders will see some lovely defenseless
   worlds fit for plundering and will go there instead of to the
   Domain.

Big fleets are just to identifiable and too tied to repair facilities
to be used for raiding anybody bigger than yourself. Think about what
happened to the Barbary States.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "And now to conclude and to finish my song.
         Let us hope that these hard times, they will not last long.
         I hope soon to have occasion to alter my song;
         and sing: All the good times of the Empire.
              In the Empire are jolly good times."

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3455
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1992 12:51 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: General Android Series

Hey guys!

Anybody remember this one?
"Good Morning, gentlemen...  I am an H.A.L. 9000 computer... I became
operational at the H.A.L. plant in Urbanna Illinois, on the 12th of
January 1992...."  -- HAL 9000

Happy Birthday HAL!

In honor of this momentous occasion, here is a series of robots I have
been pondering for a while.  Enjoy!

Scott Kellogg



THE GENDROID SERIES	(General Purpose Android)

Need a temporary ship crew member?  For Sale or Lease, try a TSR
Gendroid.  Programs installed to your specifications.  User
freindly:  requires no experience to operate.  Reliable!
Dependable!  Easy maintainance!

Expertly skilled as you choose!  Expert pilot or expert medic.
Gunner, Engineer, Navigator and many other applications
available!

The robot is contoured as a human, but that is for more than just
aesthtic reasons:  It is to allow the robot the mobility of a
human being.  It can sit in a normal human operator's chair and
use normal human tools with no modifications.  It weighs no more
than a normal human being.  Some Mercenaries have even used them
in combat armor.  They have come into favor with some of the
megacorporations most notabley the Glisten based SIE as starship
crew.

TSR rentals were soon set up at nearly all class A and B
starports, and at many class C starports.

DESIGN
Gendroids are built to be able to operate human equipment with no
hinderances.  They are human sized, and light weight.  Though
they have no fancy sensors, they can use human equipment.  They
are capable of vaccum operation and when shipboard usually carry
an hours worth of oxygen in thier tanks for emergencies.  That
should be sufficient to allow them to refuel themselves for
extended vacuum operations.  Also they carry a power interface so
that they can plug into external power while sitting at a control
station.

Also, the robot has a short range radio for communication in
vacuum conditions.  (At battle stations)

A program interface allows the robot to switch application
programs in its CPU.  A small cargo bay can be stocked with
holocrystals of application programs, thus allowing the robot to
be multi-purpose.

The robot has human-like hands and can easily operate a human
control panel, however, a brain interface allows the robot to
directly link to the ship's controls.

HISTORY
Back when the line was introduced in 725, Tukera decided to
experiment with the series on a small scale to measure it's
reliablity for larger use.  The subsidy line Akerut was equipped
with Genroids as gunnery crew for some of its smaller ships. 
This was met with fierce resistance from the Unions who feared
for their jobs.  Because of this the project eventually had to be
abandoned.

Because of the loss of the contract, the company that designed
the Gendroids:  Con-Centers was forced into bankruptcy.  The
companies assets were bought up lock stock and barrel by
Naasirka.  Naasirka felt that the Gendroid series had promise,
but their sales approach had been flawed.

Con-Centers was reformed as a subsidy of Naasirka renamed TSR.
Temoprary Sophont Replacement.  At first TSR's primary buisness
came from rentals of the Gendroids when starship crews became
temporarily incapacitated.  When a ship's crew member was too
sick or hung over a Gendroid could be rented for reasonable terms
on a temporary basis.

Slowly, acceptcance came and the robots were seen not as a threat
to jobs, but a valuable tool.  Ship captains began to purchase
units as a backup for crew members.  Programs were made available
for them and with the units program interface a single unit could
alternate between being an expert pilot or an expert medic
capable of surgery.

`PERSONALITIES'
The first Gendroids, the IB's, have only one synaptic unit and
are somewhat slow to learn and develop their skills.  Thus they
tend to remain low skilled.  The HA's learn somewhat faster than
their Low Autonomous cousins, but learning still progresses
slowly.  However, as the robots have been around for more than
200 years, some gendroids have advanced quite high in their level
of skill.  A gendroids programming can be lifted from one robot
and reinstalled in another.  Thus there are individuals which
have been running for more than 200 years.  Because the robots
run their emotion simulation programs alongside their expert
system programming, over time, the programs become mixed as the
synaptics rewrite their programs.  Thus the old individuals have
taken on distinct personalities.

Some of these individuals programs are for sale (at exorbitant
prices).  For instance there is a program known as Ralph
(pronounced 'Raif') who is became operational 219 years ago and
has achieved a skill level of Pilot-6 and Ship Tactics-3.  An HA
series Gendroid can be programmed with Ralph's programs for 3MCr. 
Ralph has picked up a few peculiarities in his life and has a
distinct personality.  He has a tendancy to sing selections of
Gilbert & Sullivan, particularly when the ship is at battle
stations.  ("For I am the Pirate King!")  Ralph's programming
(and that of all the other `personalities') is highly copy
protected.  There is a limited number of Ralphs.

Other personalities include
Fulton:  Engineer-8
Bob:  Medic-7
Sturm:  Navigator-6

TSR has been known to sell site licences for its expert programs.
But despite intense negotiation on the part of the Navy, Scouts,
and several Megacorperations, programs are available on a ship to
ship basis.  Site licenses for the `personalities' are not for
sale.

GENDROIDS AROUND THE IMPERIUM
Sale of the units is much more common now and TSR has expanded
into all sectors of the Imperium and beyond.  Reception of the
Gendroids have been met with a variety of reactions.  In the
Solomani Rim, TSR offices were bombed, and the company had to
withdraw.  HAL Industries:  a subsidy of TSR has now sucessfully
moved into the Solomani Rim.  (It seems that the Society of
Soverinity of Man over Machine objected to the name of TSR and
reacted on the idea of even temporarily replacing a human)

In Reaver's Deep, another cultural problem arose due to the Aslan
influence on human cultures there.  It seems that the male
contouring of the robot was restricting the sale of application
programs.  No one would buy programs for a 'male' robot for
'female' occupations.  Thus a different style of contouring was
made.  There are now 'male' and 'female' Gendroids.  There are
even some Aslan contoured robots available in the Hierate. 
Rumors of possible Vargr contoured robots are thus far unknown. 
It is uncertain how well the Gendroids would be accepted in Vargr
society.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Ref's notes:  For the cost of a 'personality' take a basic
program set that will fit into the robot's CPU (Pilot-2, Ship
Tactics-1) and add to it as desired.  The increase of skills must
be made within reason.  For each skill level added the cost goes
up by 500,000 Cr.  Thus Ralph with 4 added levels of pilot and 2
of ship tactics would cost 3MCr.  The skills must have been able
to fit into the CPU originally.  If a robot is often using its
program interface to change the programs running, it will learn
MUCH slower as the synaptic units take time to learn.  Thus if
you want your robot to get itself from Pilot-4 to Pilot-5, taking
out the pilot program and shoving in a Medical program will
greatly inhibit this.

In the Spinward Marches there was a case recently where a
freighter shipowner, disgusted with the performance of his crew,
fired them all and bought an entire crew of Gendroids.  The
robots took to their individual work well, but the owner was the
only human aboard.  After nearly 2 years of operations, the owner
died, but the robotic crew failed to notice this.  They went on
about their business for quite some time before this was noticed. 
It seems that they had taken over all aspects of ship operation
before the owner died.
	When the bank holding the mortgage looked at the records,
they discoverd that the ship was making an increased profit and
kept the ship operating as is.  The ship now roams the Marches
with no living crew.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------

RobotID:	Gendroid-IBC, TL12, Cr 190,250
Chassis:	1/2, Disp=120L, Config=Contoured, Armor=4F, Wt=74.7kg
Power:		1/2, FuelCell=10KW, Dur=30/90, Power Interface
Loco:		1/2, Legs=2 Road=87kph, Offroad=70kph
Comm:		Voder, Radio=Dist
Sensors:	Visual*2, Audio*2, Olfactory, Touch
Devices:	Power Interface, Light Arms*2
Brain:		CPU Synap*1, Para*10, Lin*25, Storage Std*30,
		Program Interface, Brain Interface
Program:	Low Autonomous, Full Cmd, Emotion Simulation
Other:		Fuel=72L, Cargo=9L,
		Str=15, Dex=10, Intelligence=6, Education=3

RobotID:	Gendroid-IBD, TL13, Cr 190,250
Chassis:	1/2, Disp=120L, Config=Contoured, Armor=4F, Wt=69.7kg
Power:		1/2, FuelCell=10KW, Dur=30/90, Power Interface
Loco:		1/2, Legs=2 Road=95kph, Offroad=75kph
Comm:		Voder, Radio=Dist
Sensors:	Visual*2, Audio*2, Olfactory, Touch
Devices:	Power Interface, Light Arms*2
Brain:		CPU Synap*1, Para*10, Lin*25, Storage Std*30,
		Program Interface, Brain Interface
Program:	Low Autonomous, Full Cmd, Emotion Simulation
Other:		Fuel=72L, Cargo=9L,
		Str=15, Dex=11, Intelligence=7, Education=3

RobotID:	Gendroid-IBE, TL14, Cr 190,250
Chassis:	1/2, Disp=120L, Config=Contoured, Armor=4G, Wt=68kg
Power:		1/2, FuelCell=10KW, Dur=30/90, Power Interface
Loco:		1/2, Legs=2 Road=101kph, Offroad=81kph
Comm:		Voder, Radio=Dist
Sensors:	Visual*2, Audio*2, Olfactory, Touch
Devices:	Power Interface, Light Arms*2
Brain:		CPU Synap*1, Para*10, Lin*25, Storage Std*30,
		Program Interface, Brain Interface
Program:	Low Autonomous, Full Cmd, Emotion Simulation
Other:		Fuel=72L, Cargo=9L,
		Str=15, Dex=12, Intelligence=8, Education=3

RobotID:	Gendroid-IBF, TL15, Cr 190,250
Chassis:	1/2, Disp=120L, Config=Contoured, Armor=4G, Wt=63kg
Power:		1/2, FuelCell=10KW, Dur=30/90, Power Interface
Loco:		1/2, Legs=2 Road=191kph, Offroad=87kph
Comm:		Voder, Radio=Dist
Sensors:	Visual*2, Audio*2, Olfactory, Touch
Devices:	Power Interface, Light Arms*2
Brain:		CPU Synap*1, Para*10, Lin*25, Storage Std*30,
		Program Interface, Brain Interface
Program:	Low Autonomous, Full Cmd, Emotion Simulation
Other:		Fuel=72L, Cargo=9L,
		Str=15, Dex=13, Intelligence=9, Education=3

RobotID:	Gendroid-HAD, TL13, Cr 313,750
Chassis:	1/2, Disp=120L, Config=Contoured, Armor=4F, Wt=70.2kg
Power:		1/2, FuelCell=10KW, Dur=29/88, Power Interface
Loco:		1/2, Legs=2 Road=95kph, Offroad=75kph
Comm:		Voder, Radio=Dist
Sensors:	Visual*2, Audio*2, Olfactory, Touch
Devices:	Power Interface, Light Arms*2
Brain:		CPU Synap*3, Para*12, Lin*26, Storage Std*30,
		Program Interface, Brain Interface
Program:	High Autonomous, Full Cmd, Emotion Simulation
Other:		Fuel=70.6L, Cargo=9L,
		Str=15, Dex=11, Intelligence=8, Education=3

RobotID:	Gendroid-HAE, TL14, Cr 313,750
Chassis:	1/2, Disp=120L, Config=Contoured, Armor=4G, Wt=68.5kg
Power:		1/2, FuelCell=10KW, Dur=29/88, Power Interface
Loco:		1/2, Legs=2 Road=100kph, Offroad=80kph
Comm:		Voder, Radio=Dist
Sensors:	Visual*2, Audio*2, Olfactory, Touch
Devices:	Power Interface, Light Arms*2
Brain:		CPU Synap*3, Para*12, Lin*26, Storage Std*30,
		Program Interface, Brain Interface
Program:	High Autonomous, Full Cmd, Emotion Simulation
Other:		Fuel=70.6L, Cargo=9L,
		Str=15, Dex=12, Intelligence=9, Education=3

RobotID:	Gendroid-HAF, TL15, Cr 313,750
Chassis:	1/2, Disp=120L, Config=Contoured, Armor=4G, Wt=63.5kg
Power:		1/2, FuelCell=10KW, Dur=29/88, Power Interface
Loco:		1/2, Legs=2 Road=108kph, Offroad=86kph
Comm:		Voder, Radio=Dist
Sensors:	Visual*2, Audio*2, Olfactory, Touch
Devices:	Power Interface, Light Arms*2
Brain:		CPU Synap*3, Para*12, Lin*26, Storage Std*30,
		Program Interface, Brain Interface
Program:	High Autonomous, Full Cmd, Emotion Simulation
Other:		Fuel=70.6L, Cargo=9L,
		Str=15, Dex=13, Intelligence=10, Education=3

	The Gendroid robot has a CPU space of 18 for the use of
application programs.  Most often the robot will keep it's
emotion simulation program running.  It is included in the cost
of the robot.  This reduces the available program space to 16,
though it is easy to down load the emotion simulation program
this is not normally done primarily for aesthetic reasons.

Program			Cr
- -------			----
Pilot-4			2000
Navigator-4		2000
*Communication-4	1600
*Sensors-4		1600
Medic-4			2000
Engineer-4		1600
Gravitic-4		1600
*Electronic-4		1600
*Mechanical-4		1600
*Gunnery-4		1600
*Ship's Boat-4		1600
*Grav Vehicle-4		1600
*Cargo Handling-4	 800
*Steward-4		1200
*Janitor-4		 800

Common Program sets
Pilot-2, Navigator-2				2000Cr
Pilot-2, Ship Tactics-1				1800Cr
Security-3, Tactics-1, Weapon Handling-1	1700Cr
+Weapon Handling-4, Tactics-1, Recon-1		2400Cr
Lab Tech-4 (Physics-1, Chemistry-1 or Bio-1)	2100Cr
+Lab Tech-4 Genetics-1				2800Cr

* Requires half of the robot's available CPU to run, additional
programs may be run. (2 such programs may be run simultaneously)
+ Requires that the emotion simulation program not run in CPU

Scott Kellogg

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3456
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1992 12:51 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: Cargo Lifters

Hey Fans,

Today is a day to celebrate computers and robots!  (Well yesterday was,
but who cares!)

I was looking around and found that the price of a cargo lifter is
REDICULOUS for what it does.  the damn thing costs 30,000Cr!
Here are some robots built for the same purpose with better
performance and they respond to voice or radio commands.
Each unit is capable of carrying 1 metric ton.
(better than a cargo lifter and about half the cost!)
They are capable of operation in vacuum if fuel tanks are loaded with
oxygen and hydrogen.

Please note there is not a lot of exess thrust (10 Kg)  They are SLOW
and I wouldn't use them with 1 ton loads in high winds!

Scott Kellogg


RobotID:	Cargo Lifter, TL9, Cr 16,092
Chassis:	1/2, Disp=400L, Conf=4USL, Armor=4D, Loaded=1320g
Power:		1/2, FuelCell=138KW, Dur=26dy
Loco:		1/2, StdGrav=1330Kg, Max=7kph, Cruise=5kph
Comm:		Radio=Dist(5km)
Sensors:	Visual*2, Audio*1
Brain:		CPU Lin*7, Storage Std*20, Slave Unit
Program:	Low Data LimBasCmd, GravVehicle-1, Cargo Handling-1
Other:		Fuel=206L, Dex=15, Intelligence-0, Education-2

RobotID:	Cargo Lifter, TL10, Cr 15,833
Chassis:	1/2, Disp=400L, Conf=4USL, Armor=4E, Loaded=1318g
Power:		1/2, FuelCell=138KW, Dur=26dy
Loco:		1/2, StdGrav=1328Kg, Max=7kph, Cruise=5kph
Comm:		Radio=Dist(5km)
Sensors:	Visual*2, Audio*1
Brain:		CPU Lin*7, Storage Std*20, Slave Unit
Program:	Low Data LimBasCmd, GravVehicle-1, Cargo Handling-1
Other:		Fuel=206L, Dex=15, Intelligence-0, Education-2
(TL 11 Model identical to TL 10)

RobotID:	Cargo Lifter, TL12, Cr 13,685
Chassis:	1/2, Disp=400L, Conf=4USL, Armor=4F, Loaded=1315g
Power:		1/2, FuelCell=137KW, Dur=26dy
Loco:		1/2, StdGrav=1325Kg, Max=7kph, Cruise=5kph
Comm:		Radio=Dist(5km)
Sensors:	Visual*2, Audio*1
Brain:		CPU Lin*5, Storage Std*20, Slave Unit
Program:	Low Data LimBasCmd, GravVehicle-1, Cargo Handling-1
Other:		Fuel=208L, Dex=15, Intelligence-0, Education-2

RobotID:	Cargo Lifter, TL13, Cr 12,606
Chassis:	1/2, Disp=400L, Conf=4USL, Armor=4F, Loaded=1244kg
Power:		1/2, FuelCell=131KW, Dur=34dy
Loco:		1/2, StdGrav=1254Kg, Max=7kph, Cruise=5kph
Comm:		Radio=Dist(5km)
Sensors:	Visual*2, Audio*1
Brain:		CPU Lin*5, Storage Std*20, Slave Unit
Program:	Low Data LimBasCmd, GravVehicle-1, Cargo Handling-1
Other:		Fuel=254L, Dex=15, Intelligence-1, Education-2

RobotID:	Cargo Lifter, TL14, Cr 12,586
Chassis:	1/2, Disp=400L, Conf=4USL, Armor=4G, Loaded=1241kg
Power:		1/2, FuelCell=130KW, Dur=34dy
Loco:		1/2, StdGrav=1251Kg, Max=7kph, Cruise=5kph
Comm:		Radio=Dist(5km)
Sensors:	Visual*2, Audio*1
Brain:		CPU Lin*5, Storage Std*20, Slave Unit
Program:	Low Data LimBasCmd, GravVehicle-1, Cargo Handling-1
Other:		Fuel=254L, Dex=15, Intelligence-2, Education-2

RobotID:	Cargo Lifter, TL15, Cr 11,923
Chassis:	1/2, Disp=400L, Conf=4USL, Armor=4G, Loaded=1161kg
Power:		1/2, FuelCell=122KW, Dur=60dy
Loco:		1/2, StdGrav=1171Kg, Max=7kph, Cruise=5kph
Comm:		Radio=Dist(5km)
Sensors:	Visual*2, Audio*1
Brain:		CPU Lin*5, Storage Std*20, Slave Unit
Program:	Low Data LimBasCmd, GravVehicle-1, Cargo Handling-1
Other:		Fuel=300L, Dex=15, Intelligence-3, Education-2

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3457
From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: our tech level
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 92 10:07:26 GMT

d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se writes:
> 
> > Next, I've seen several references here to present day Earth being TL 8.
> > Has anyone succeeded in building a grav vehicle, even a simple air/raft?
> > Has anyone yet got a working fusion power plant?  If the answers to those
> > questions are both "no", then on what grounds can present day Earth be
> > awarded a TL rating of 8?
> 
>   I got the UPP for Earth Now straight from the Traveller Book. I don't have
> anything else but Hard Times and S&A with me now, but the conversion charts 
> in 3G^3 talks about 'caseless ammo' and simple laser weapons as the top of
> the tech at TravellerTL 8.

Well, if they're going to change the definitions, then maybe we are TL 8.  Just
exactly what does mark a planet as being TL 8, as opposed to TL 7?  I always
thought it was the ability to build fusion plants and anti-grav.
> 
>   As for the lack of anti-grav, it is well known that the Solomani is lacking
> in that area:) Both old 'Robots' and S&A mentions that Solomani gravitics fall
> one or more TLs behind.

And apparently they lag one or more TL's in power technology as well.  Come to
that, what operational simple laser weapons exist today on Earth?  I assume
this refers to hand-held laser weapons, because starship lasers are also
available at TL 7, according to High Guard and MT.  On the other hand ...

Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US (Steve Higginbotham) writes:
> 
> By the way, did anyone notice on Headline News a few weeks back when they
> did a piece on a Data Display Headset?
> ...
> It cost less than $800 (about one-third what MT charges for them), and is
> here now (as opposed to TL12).

And in addition, we've had hand computers for some time.  Apparently, a hand
computer is the equivalent of a Model/1 computer, and the Model/1 comes out
at TL 5.  I believe TL 5 is about the equivalent of WW2 times, and I'm fairly
sure that a decent present-day hand-held computer can outperform any computer
built during or around WW2!

MT charges Cr1000 for a hand computer, and the planet which built it is TL 11.
I'm not sure what Cr1000 translates to in dollars or pounds, but I am sure
that present-day Earth is not TL 11!

- -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3458
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1992 15:33 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: Fitting Combat Armor (male and female)

Hey folks,

Here is an odd question.  I'm just one curious about and am wondering
what others think.

It is a question of the fitting of battle dress and combat armor.  Does
armor have to be fitted to the individual?  It seems to me that someone
would have a lot of trouble fitting into someone elses battle dress.

It seems to me that it would be a difficult proposition to design a suit
to fit EVERYONE.

Actually, let me put this in the context in which it was originally
brought up:  Would there be different models of battle dress for sexes?

*I* have assumed so.  But when it came up recently, I was surprised when
someone disagreed with me.  In hearing a lecture by Dr. Kathy Sullivan (First
US female astronaut to space walk) I found that she had a great deal of
difficulty when they tried to put her into the 'male' space suits.

No, I am not talking about relief tubes, I am referring to the fit of the
suit.  I seem to remember that there was difficulty matching the size of
the chest unit with the legs.  I seem to remember that one female astronaut
had trouble because she took the largest size chest unit, to fit into, but
then the sleeves were so long, her arms would only reach down to the forarms.

The problem was not restricted to the chest.  The size of the female hips
being statistically larger than male hips caused more problems.  A female
astronaut had difficulties because to fit into a unit.  She ended up with
a fit where (in order to accomodate her hips) the crotch of the pants was
down around the middle of her thighs.

I once had the experience of watching a woman of my height and
weight try to get into my clothes.  The result was quite amusing, but
suffice to say that it just did not work.

These to me seem significant design problems.  To my mind sufficient enough
to call for separate designs of armor for different sexes.  It seems to me
that the Aslan would Definitely have differing designs.  But I think it
would be necessary for humans too.

Yours with a red face,
Scott Kellogg

"Good afternoon, gentlemen.  I am a HAL 9000 computer.
I became operational at the H.A.L. plant in Urbana Illinois, on the
12th of January, 1992..."

	- HAL 9000: in 2001:  A space odessy

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3459
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1992 22:13 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: GEnie wish list addendum:  Micro-Electronics

Hey guys,

I know the GEnie wish list is pretty dead, but I hope some kind soul would
please forward this for me...

One last thing I would like to see in Traveller 3.  Some rules for the
construction of micro-electronics.  As is, it is impossible to build
any really small neato devices.

It is impossible to build a robot that is under 1 liter in displacement.
(whataDRAG!)  Now the only way to get something neat and small is to have
the ref just guess how much it would cost.  Some official guidelines
would really help a LOT!

Even if it is just a basic rule.
Like:  For every time the devices volume is divided by 2, the cost is
multiplied by 4.

Thus a device that originally takes up 8 liters and cost 1000 cr
would cost:
4000Cr if built at 4 liters,
16000Cr if built at 2 liters
etc. etc.

What do you guys think?

Scott Kellogg

"Good afternoon, gentlemen.  I am a HAL 9000 computer.
I became operational at the H.A.L. plant in Urbana Illinois, on the
12th of January, 1992..."
	- HAL 9000: in 2001:  A space odessy

Yeah, sure!  and in '97 the Robinson Family goes off to Alpha Centauri,
and 2 years after that the moon gets blown out of Earth orbit by an
explosion in the nuclear waste dump!

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3460
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Fitting Battle Dresses
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 92 11:42:41 MET

Scott Kellogg writes:
>It is a question of the fitting of battle dress and combat armor.  Does
>armor have to be fitted to the individual?  It seems to me that someone
>would have a lot of trouble fitting into someone elses battle dress.

Yes. Given that the battle dress has a rigid shell it may be
possible to do somthing with internal padding, but male and
female versions would at least be necessary, as well as
different sizes. The battle dresses in _Starship Troopers_ are
individually fitted (I think it takes 150+ manhours to power up
a new suit  -  this would presumably include fitting.) Hmmm...
that's one way of crocking battle dresses that I hadn't thought
of before. Thanks.

Btw. I've decided to include a new skill in marine character
generation (and perhaps army too?) called 'armourer', and then
require armourer skill to care for high tech weapons (that is,
anything with electronic parts). A weapon skill would give a
default ability to field repair that particular weapon (possibly
electronics skill might too?), but proper maintenance and
especially proper repairs would require armorer skill.

What do you think?


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "Come all brother spacemen that travel along.
         Oh, pray come and tell me where the trade is all gone.
         Long time have I travelled, and I cannot find none."
         Ch: "And sing: All the hard times of the Empire.
              In the Empire are very hard times."
                                Traditional song.

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3461
From: PHB100@PSUVM.PSU.EDU
Date:    Tue, 14 Jan 92 09:53 EST
Subject: Testing

this is a test.
- ----------
In the dark no one can hear the color of your eyes.
Disclaimer:  This is me.  Do I sound like anyone else?

Paul Baughman          PHB100 @ psuvm.bitnet
                       baughman @ gis.psu.edu

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3462
From: richard@agora.rain.COM (Richard Johnson)
Subject: If the (Battle) Dress Fits...
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 92 8:01:50 EST

Scott Kellogg asks about the fit and comfort of battle dress between
sexes.  I suspect the same question could be asked about species.

In my campaigns (PBEM excepcted), he** yes they're custom!
Each unit must be individually tailored and custom manufactured.
Then, a well-qualified armor tech, who is familiar with this company's
model, must spend hours and hours with the wearer, adjusting and
calibrating each every feedback probe, sensor enhancer, etc.

Then, the wearer must be trained how to use the internal HUD/holo
unit (of course different for each supplier), how to walk, stand,
sit, squat, run, jump, etc.  Basically re-learn combat as a member
of protected forces.

THAT's why they cost hundreds of kilocredits per copy.
- -- 
Richard Johnson     richard@agora.rain.com
"We've learned a great deal about how to keep the American people
pacified."   Ex-CIA director William Colby after the Church hearings

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3463
Date:         Tue, 14 Jan 92 12:07:33 EST
From: Nicholas Sylvain <NPSYLV%WMVM1.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Sexist Battledress

In response to Scott Kellogg's musings on how combat armor and battledress
would vary to fit each sex, I note that the Aslan have at least partially
solved the matter in a typically elegant fashion.

Namely, Battledress skill is a male-only skill. So much for THAT debate. :-)

===
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state,
 the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."
                   -- United States Constitution, Amendment 2

Nicholas Sylvain (npsylv@wmvm1.cc.wm.edu)
Marshall-Wythe School of Law
College of William and Mary

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3464
Date:    Tue, 14 Jan 1992 13:08:34 -0600 (CST)
From: A_COPEAB@CCSVAX.SFASU.EDU (Brandon Cope)
Subject: male and female armor and vacc suits

Hmm, good point. A possible guideline: each vacc suit/armored suit is made for 
a specific body size and form, which include different races and sexes. If
wearing a VS/AS of the wrong race (assuming the person can fit into it), there
is a -2 to -6 penalty to all physical actions. The same holds true for wearing
a suit made for the opposite sex of the same race, but the penalties would be
half of above. Of course, some combinations don't mix; an average human isn't 
going to fit into a suit of droyne battle dress, and a vargr is going to have 
a difficult time doing anything in a vacc suit made for an aslan. Usually,
don't bother wearing the armor/vacc suit for another race, since it hinders
more than helps. However, in the same race, and maybe even the same sex,
wearing someone else's armor might not work. Roll 1d6 each for the person
trying to wear the armor, and for the armor/vacc suit itself. If the person's
roll is equal to or greater than the armor's roll, the suit may be worn without
penalty. If the armor's roll is higher, that is the penalty for wearing the
armor. However, if the penalty is -5 or greater, then the person cannot wear
the armor in quiestion. Apply the following DMs: +1 to armor roll is person is
unusually small/large for race, +2 to armor roll if person is of wrong sex than
what armor was built for. It might be possible to make a generic armor
(actually, it seems like there would have to be one for emergency vacc suits on
commercial craft). Cost would be double normal, and there would be a -2 penalty
for all physical actions (the vacc suits don't fit anyone particularly well).
Note also that a 6 year old child could be placed in an adult human's vacc suit
for protection from vaccum -- the kid couldn't do much, but he would be sealed.
    

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3465
Date:    Tue, 14 Jan 1992 14:27:41 -0600 (CST)
From: A_COPEAB@CCSVAX.SFASU.EDU (Brandon Cope)
Subject: tech levels

Another thing to throw into the discussion: The Traveller Book (1983 ?) and
Grand Census (1988 ?) do not exaxtly match with things listed at TL8, or af few
other TLs. Not that anything is incredibly wrong; some things have just shifted 
up or down one TL. Granted, I know Grand Census isn't by GDW, and it may be in
error (I don't remember the TL tables in MegaTraveller). If anyone has both
Classic and Mega Traveller maybe they can check to see if things really did
change over time. 

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3466
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 92 09:15:48+1100
From: grue@cs.uq.oz.au
Subject: Change of email address

        Due to some unfortunate policy decisions, my email address has changed
to 'grue@cs.uq.oz.au'.  Could people please update my address in their alias
lists.

	Thanks for this,



        						Pauli

Paul Dale               | Internet/CSnet:            grue@cs.uq.oz.au
Dept of Computer Science| Bitnet:       grue%cs.uq.oz.au@uunet.uu.net
Uni of Queensland       | JANET:           grue%cs.uq.oz.au@uk.ac.ukc
Australia, 4072         | EAN:                          grue@cs.uq.oz
                        | UUCP:           uunet!munnari!cs.uq.oz!grue
f4e6g4Qh4++             | JUNET:                     grue@cs.uq.oz.au

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
*****************

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To: dan@engrg.uwo.ca (Dan Corrin), bfwong@ocf.berkeley.edu (Raven Blackburn),
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Subject: TML Bundle #284: Msgs 3467-3488
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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun Jan 19 21:00:12 PST 1992
From: traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com (TML Administrator)
Subject: TML Bundle #284: Table of Contents

-AMN- --Date--- --Sender--------- --Subject-----------------------------------
3467  14-Jan-92 SULAIMAN@ecs.umas Comments on a few topics... << Hi, A few ramb
3468  14-Jan-92 Steve_Higginbotha cats, rats, dogs... << After reading the last
3469  14-Jan-92 SULAIMAN@ecs.umas Traveller PBEM II (EGAD Part 2!) << Hi, I am 
3470  14-Jan-92 Robert S. Dean    Earth's Current TL << Gentlebeings, I've been
3471  14-Jan-92 Robert S. Dean    Hard Times Errata << In addition to the wilds
3472  15-Jan-92 Leonard Erickson  emergency suits << Brandon Cope writes: >It m
3473  15-Jan-92 richard@agora.rai Earth's Tech Level? << Well the World Builder
3474  15-Jan-92 KELLOGG@ducvax.au Antimatter? STABLE!!!!???? << One more word o
3475  15-Jan-92 KELLOGG@ducvax.au 20th century Earth (US) Tech Levels << Adrian
3476  15-Jan-92 KELLOGG@ducvax.au Fitting Battle Dress/Combat Armor, and cargo 
3477  15-Jan-92 Robert S. Dean    Starport Defenses << Bertil writes: > > One t
3478  15-Jan-92 Robert S. Dean    Re: (3423) Starport traffic << > From: jpb@um
3479  15-Jan-92 Robert S. Dean    Below Mininum TL Planets << > >From: Cynthia_
3480  15-Jan-92 Hans Rancke-Madse _Armourer_ skill << Me: >>Btw. I've decided t
3481  15-Jan-92 Robert S. Dean    Re: (3460) Fitting Battle Dresses << > From: 
3482  15-Jan-92 Robert S. Dean    Re: (3467) Comments on a few topics... << > F
3483  15-Jan-92 Robert S. Dean    Re: _Armourer_ skill << In your letter dated 
3484  15-Jan-92 Bill Morrison     The sizing of battledress << >From: Hans Ranc
3485  16-Jan-92 A_COPEAB@CCSVAX.S battle suits, combat armor, vacc suits << Oop
3486  15-Jan-92 christofer bertan Fitting Battledress << I was always of the op
3487  16-Jan-92 d9bertil@dtek.cha Re: Earth's Tech Level? << > From: richard@ag
3488  16-Jan-92 d9bertil@dtek.cha Re: Vargr raiders in the Domain << > > Probab

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3467
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1992 17:17 -0500
From: SULAIMAN@ecs.umass.edu
Subject: Comments on a few topics...

Hi,
A few ramblings and points to add to various discussions going on
currently.

1. For all of the tonnage  stats based on Earth states, were the
tonnages for oil tankers excluded? For most Terran nations oil
imports(or exports) form a significant fraction of the total
tonnage. I doubt if a similar situation exists for Traveller worlds
unless the data represents total tonnage including insystem traffic
which for a significant part could be hydrogen fuel tankers
resupplying all starports. My understanding was that the numbers
were trying to represent intra-system or jump traffic (paralleling
intra-nation trade on Earth). I think a significant portion of the
imports for Bangladesh and US (tonnage wise) will be oil.
Especially considering the average displacement of an oil tanker vs
a container ship.

2. I would think that one of the reasons for joining the Imperium
for a planet would be reduced defense expenditures. What Striker
presents may represent independent worlds trying to build an
independent navy. Most worlds I would think who are deep in the
Imperium would see little need for a large indigenous Navy (pre-
Rebellion era). They would pay the 0.3% of GNP to Imperium and the
Imperium would pay them a portion to maintain extrality defenses
etc for starport. Thus there would be little need for local
investment in system defenses especially if you are far from the
border. 

3. I found Hard Times to be a very interesting product. Probably
the single best product to come out for MT. I found it lacking in
a couple of things. First of all it has absolutely nill value for
"new players" (something which GDW wants to attract). Secondly it
makes everything that GDW has put out so far for MT worthless. The
maps that are supposed to be a GM's aid are now worthless because
a GM has to find out for every world what the heck is really
happening. What are you supposed to do with the sector info on back
of Encyclopedia(never correct to begin with) or the alien modules.
Its aimed only at hard core Traveller players and even then it adds
little to improve the problems in MT and only adds additional rules
which most people find problematic to say the least.

4. Is it just me or are there other people out there who are
getting sick and tired of the gloom and doom setup in current
SFRPG. I think it started with Battletech and then Shadowrun. It
was great then because they stood out but now with the gloom and
disaster in every SFRPG I am kind of looking forward to something
that has a positive tone. Maybe the next version of Traveller
should be Traveller 3 : The Reconstruction (or the New Imperium!!).

5. Aslan invasions. First of all I agree that only with most
incredible luck and ability could the Aslans attack the Domain and
get to and CONQUER Glisten. However I found it even stranger that
the Commonality of Kedzudh (6-10 worlds pre Rebellion) has taken
over half of Aramis subsector. This subsector is adjacent to Regina
which is the home of the Archduke! Come on! As of 1120 they still
held it and the maps in Hard Times don't reflect a change.
According to some notes in Digest, this conquest was carried out by
only some fringe worlds of the commonality and not all of the
worlds are involved. Even more ludicrous! 

Hard to believe considering that the Sword Worlds and the Outworld
Coalition, which incidently was prepared for war, managed to only
take a fraction of the worlds from the "unprepared" forces in the
Domain. And I don't buy the FFW weakened defenses bit either. FFW
did not effect Aramis subsector local defenses or those of the
Trojan Reach. Yet we are to believe that Hi-Pop worlds with the
capability of defeating capitol Zho fleets or atleast crippling
them (using just system defenses) can't beat a motley fleet of some
Vargr worlds. 

6. Finally to Scott Kellog.... How much cargo do the cargo handlers
handle....???



Ameer

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3468
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 92 16:10:27 CST
From: Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US (Steve Higginbotham)
Subject: cats, rats, dogs...

After reading the last few issues of the TML all at once, I noticed that
the discussion has finally come around to the unreality of the Aslan and
Vargr "threat" to the Domain.  
 
1) the Vargr.  Face it.  The Vargr aren't a credible threat to anyone. 
A Vargr Navy needs bases just like the next guys do.  If operating that
far from your homeport were that easy in MT, then the Fifth Frontier War
would have included a lot of things that never happened (for instance -
Vargr raids in force (about 100,000 tons of warships) down around
Rhylanor, Regina, Glisten, and similar important worlds.  Instead
theyplayed around with a few nowhere places on the fringe, and never
even got to Efate.
Vargr raiders are a "threat" all right.  But to what?  A raider fleet of
100,000 aggregate tons could carry no more than about 20,000 men and
their equipment (tanks, APCs, artillery, food, medicine, etc.).  That
wouldn't even be a major threat to the USA today.  The threat to an
Imperial world with its share of 50-odd squadrons of cruisers and
battleriders would be trivial.
As pirates, the Vargr raiders should be a major threat to small ships in
isolated systems.  Since recent discussion here has indicated that 99%
of the shipping in the Imperium is bulk haulers, which, if armed, could
brush aside the average pirate effortlessly, I doubt the Vargr ability
to do more than annoy the Domain.
Besides, I doubt that the Vargr would be that excited about invading the
Imperium, when they know that old man Oberlindes would send the
"Emmissary" to give them a stern talking to.
 
2) the Aslan.  Has anyone ever done a detailed analysis of an assault
across the Rift against an enemy operating close to his own bases?  A
TL15 fleet is MUCH better than a TL13 fleet.  A TL16 fleet makes that
TL15 fleet look kind of sick.  The Domain can raise (under TCS
guidelines) somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 trillion credit
squadrons of TL16 warships (almost entirely from Vincennes/Deneb 1122).
That force alone should be worth 1500 squadrons of Ihatei.  The TL 15
squadrons from Glisten, Trin, Rhylanor, and Mora are worth 1000
squadrons.  All in all, the aslan are going to have a very hard time
subjugating any part of the Domain (unless they earn their land by
helping smash the Vargr to Coreward).
Admittedly, the Aslan have enough firepower to be a threat in spite of
the problems.  Assuming they can operate without bases for extended
periods.  There is no indication anywhere in MT that a ship can live
without a base for any period much beyond a year.  With the Aslan
baseworlds 20 parsecs away in the Reaches, they will spend so much time
shuttling back and forth for maintenance and repairs, that they won't
have time to be a real threat.
 
The real question for the Aslan is why anyone in their right mind would
go that far looking for land when most Aslan systems are NOWHERE NEAR
FILLED UP.  The Aslan systems include about the same fraction of High
Pop worlds as the Imperial sectors do.  So 92% of the Aslan systems have
LARGE amounts of extra space for the taking.  And they are all close by
to home.  Makes you wonder...
 
3)  The Sword WOrlds.  Now these guys could be a threat.  They can't
fight the Domain by themselves, but as a base of operations for either
Ihatei or Vargr fleets, they can't be beat.  And the Sword World fleets
are NOT trivial.  They have three High Pop worlds of their own, and can
maintain a fleet of 180+ trillion credit squadrons if they want to.  Not
nearly enough to fight the Imperium, but there is no Corridor Fleet to
bail them out this next time.  And they are still the perfect base for
raiders (Vargr, Ihatei, and others).  Right at the sector's jugular,
with enough rift in front of them to make defense a LITTLE easier.  They
could hold out a LOOOONG time.
 
Later...

- -- Via DLG Pro v0.985b

Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US

I have learned to use the word "impossible" with the greatest caution.
                                    --W. von Braun

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3469
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1992 17:27 -0500
From: SULAIMAN@ecs.umass.edu
Subject: Traveller PBEM II (EGAD Part 2!)

Hi,
I am considering running a small (2-8 player preferably < 6) Traveller 
campaign via email till atleast June 92. Any suggestions, comments, hints
guidelines, technical issues are welcomed at this stage.

Thanx

Ameer

sulaiman@ecs.umass.edu


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3470
Date:     Tue, 14 Jan 92 19:50:36 EST
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Earth's Current TL

Gentlebeings,

I've been away from my fast computer at a class since a week ago Monday, and
have therefore been pretty much 'read only'...however, the question of Earth's
current TL is being tossed around, and I fear that I must step in and correct
a slight inaccuracy:

Both Fusion Power and Grav Units are TL 9 (nine).

This is a slight change from the air/raft description in Classic Trav (all
three versions), but has been in effect since Striker was released in 1981,
at least.  Thus, there is no inconsistency in stating that we are now at
TL 8 (eight).

Just setting the record straight,

Rob Dean

(and look for a load of stuff in the next few days...not only have we been
having some great stuff go by here, but I've got five or six handwritten
pages of notes and a couple of vehicle designs from lulls in my class that I
will be expanding on and typing in.)



------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3471
Date:     Tue, 14 Jan 92 20:01:26 EST
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Hard Times Errata

In addition to the wilds/outlands reversal(?) mentioned earlier on the 1125
map, I've come across two more erros needing correction in Hard Times.

On P.23, right hand column, cross off the paragraph starting "This stage is
accompanied...), since the example paragraph below indicates that all worlds
are affected.

On page 24, left hand column, delete the paragraph starting "This stage is
accompanied..), again, the example says that all worlds are affected.

(Or at least all those that lost population, not just the doomed or failing
ones...)

Rob Dean


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3472
Date: 15 Jan 92 03:12:00 EST
From: Leonard Erickson <70465.203@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: emergency suits

Brandon Cope writes:
>It might be possible to make a generic armor (actually, it seems like
>there would have to be one for emergency vacc suits on commercial
>craft). Cost would be double normal, and there would be a -2 penalty
>for all physical actions (the vacc suits don't fit anyone particularly
>well).  Note also that a 6 year old child could be placed in an adult
>human's vacc suit for protection from vaccum -- the kid couldn't do
>much, but he would be sealed.
    
Actually, your "emergency vacc suit" exists. They have them on the Space
Shuttle and call them "rescue balls". The mobility is non-existent, but I
suspect that the cost is a lot lower!





------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3473
From: richard@agora.rain.COM (Richard Johnson)
Subject: Earth's Tech Level?
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 92 7:52:01 EST

Well the World Builder's Handbook says there are three separate TL's
to use for each world.  The first is OVERALL TL - that which is 
common for most of the inhabitants.  I would call this about TL5,
balancing it between mildly civilized masses in the Southern Hemisphere
and India with the moderately civilized masses in China and the 
Mid-east.  The scond is (oh I forget-I'll call it HIGHEST LOCAL TL) -
this is the TL that is the highest, but is common to a given region.
For instance, TL8 at many major University centers around the 
globe.  Finally is the NOVELTY TL, which is the highest available
TL of any item, anywhere.  Again, I'd call that an 8 for some
exotic computer and weaponry systems.

So _my_ reading of Earth's TL is ~6 with some anomalies.
Or do the rules include building your civilization on the backs
of most of the population?
- -- 
Richard Johnson     richard@agora.rain.com
"We've learned a great deal about how to keep the American people
pacified."   Ex-CIA director William Colby after the Church hearings

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3474
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1992 11:20 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: Antimatter?  STABLE!!!!????

One more word on traveller and technology preditions...

Anti-matter stuff is listed as TL 17!
Well, if what I heard recently is true, I'll bet it won't be when
the traveller revision comes out!

Supposedly, the US airforce is playing around with the stuff.
Building and anti-matter rocket!

Also, (and this is the WEIRD part)
Supposedly, they recently found that Anti-matter will become
STABLE at temperatures close to absolute zero.  Yes!  It will NOT
EXPLODE!  I believe they were talking about storing it in
crystalline form at liquid helium temperatures.

I'm gonna see if I can find out anything more about this.
Supposedly, this might have been in scientific american.  Has
anyone else heard about this?  Metlay?  Roald?  (how many
physicists are there out there?)

Scott Kellogg
Reality is stranger than Science fiction!

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3475
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1992 11:21 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: 20th century Earth (US) Tech Levels

Adrian, Bertil and others have been talking about if earth is
TL 8 or not.

Well, I would say we are a very EARLY 8.  Here's a bit from JTAS
#22:  in an article on nuclear warhead technology
"A Scout crew, for example, would  take great intrest in whether
the "low-tech" planet they were investigating could intercept
them with a gun-armed ME-109, (sic) an F-12A multisonic
interceptor carrying an air-to-air guided missile with a 5Kt.
warhead or an SA-5 "Gammon ABM weapon with a 5 Megaton warhead
(VERY interested), yet all three of these weapons are nominally
tech 6!"

	"TL 6.0 would be equivanent to 1940-45, and would include
"Little Boy" and prop driven monoplanes.
	TL 6.1 would be 1945-50 and include "Fat Man", the first
jets and V-2 class rocket weapons.
	TL 6.2 is 1950-55, the first thermonuclear warheads, first
_deployed_ supersonic jets, and missiles up to 1,000 km range.
	TL 6.3 (1955-60) includes the first ICBM's and aircraft up
to Mach 2.
	TL 6.4 (1960-65) includes the first manned orbital
spacecraft, thi first "neutron" weapons, and aircraft of the
SR-71/F-12A class (speeds around Mach 5) (sic)
	TL 6.5 (1955-70) would include manned lunar rockets and
primitive reusable spacecraft, like the X-20 "Dynasoar" would
have been had the development of it not been cancelled."
	-Jim Cumber JTAS 22

>From the Ref's handbook:
TL 4 =1900
TL 5 =1930
TL 6 =1950
TL 7 =1970
TL 8 =1990
TL 9 =2010

I personally disagree with the above.  In my opinion it
should be:
TL 4 =American Civil War
TL 5 =World War I
TL 6 =World War II through mid Korean War
TL 7 =Mid Korea up to mid Vietnam War
TL 8 =Late Vietnam war up to today

The whole point of this is that Tech level can be pretty vague
when you try to pin down 'This is TL 8'.


A great deal of the vehicles I have put up are TL 8.  (I may even
have put out more Tech 8 stuff than the unbeatable Rob Dean!:-)
I have sort of been going by the design tables in the ref's
manual and COACC to define this as TL 8, but that is flawed too
if you look at what the designs say.  According to COACC the F-14
is a TL 8 aircraft (oops it was deployed in the early 70's!)
The A-6, the A-10, the Harrier, the B-52, the Boeing 747, and
many others are TL 8.  (The B-1 is TL 9) (sigh!)

The FLIR in current military aircraft is TL 8.  LADAR in current
tank technology is TL 8

No, I have'nt seen any Spinal mount partical accelerators in the
world today, nor 250MW laser batteries, nor man portable laser
weapons that can kill.

But in my (ahem, considerable) experience in vehicle
construction, I have found that when I want to build a present
day vehicle, I need TL 8 to do it.  TL 7 just doesn't cut it.

Take a look back at the designs I have put out in this reguard:
Tank M-1A1 (TL-8)
Tank T-80 (TL-8)
Submarine SSN Los Angles Class (TL-8)
Submarine SSN Alfa (TL-8)
Submarine SSBN Typhoon (TL-8)
Fighter FA-18 Hornet (TL-8)
Carrier CVN Nimitz (TL-8)

These can't be built at TL-7

	(Look out he's getting on the soap box!)

The problem we are dealing with is that Traveller came out in '79
and had the '60's outlook of what technology was gonna do in the
next 10 years.  Look at all the predictions that have gone wrong:

UFO said SHADO would have a base on the moon in 1980.

Buck Rogers was supposed to have left Earth in 1987.

Remember 2001?  we thought we were gonna have HAL in operation
last sunday!  January 12th 1992!

The Robinson family was supposed to be lifting off from earth in
1997.

Space:1999 had a base on the moon.
(Ok, 2001, and UFO are the only good science fiction listed
above, but I don't care!)

The point is that back when Trav came out, we thought technology
was gonna go alot faster than it did.  (We also thought that the
economy would keep us going at the rate we did!)  Let's face it,
technology is not progressing at the rate it did back then.  Some
of our top of the line fighter aircraft are 15-20 years old.  We
went from P-51 mustangs to Tri-sonic aircraft in that amount of
time! GEEZ!

Well, anyway, We are at the low end of TL 8, and have been for
about 10+ years.  No we don't have fusion, no we don't have
antigrav, but take a look at the ref's manual, those aren't TL 8
any more!  When Trav first came out, they were, but then the
plasma physicists said '20 more years folks' and MegaTrav made it
TL 9.

Fade out grumbling...

Scott Kellogg

Support Science!
Put a man on Mars!
Increase Research Bugets!
Pour money into Fusion!
Put money into NASA!

Ok, Ok, I'll get off my soap box...

PS.  I have only cheated once:  That was for the designs of The
SHADO Skydiver.  I put in TL 9 grav and a TL9 fusion plant.  But
that was noted in the design.  (In the show the sub was fission
powered, but I couldn't get it to be foil-born with it's weight.
I needed the grav to keep Sky one airborne because of the weight
of its pressure hull.

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3476
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1992 12:20 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: Fitting Battle Dress/Combat Armor, and cargo lifter capacity

Just a few quick notes.

Armorer Skill
Well, I would say that an NCO with Battle Dress-2 should be able to fit
and adjust armor to a person.  After all, normal military training would
require that a person be able to strip, clean, maintain, etc etc their
suit at Battle Dress-1.  Battle Dress-2 should allow you to follow cookbook
instructions on how to adjust the suit.  Battle Dress-3 should allow you
to be an expert at customization.  Thus I would oppose introducing an
Armorer skill.  (For heaven's sake it's tough enough to get battle dress
skill in the first place!  Why make maintainance even HARDER on the players?)

Aslan Battle Dress
Nick pointed out that Battle Dress is a male only skill for Aslan.
True, but what about Combat Armor?  I would imagine it would be a similar
situation to what we have for arming troops today:  The enlisted carry
rifles, while the officer carries a pistol.  Thus, in Aslan battle dress
forces, the males wear battle dress, while the females would wear combat
armor.

If so, then there would have to be male and female models of combat armor.
Probably, they would be distinctive designs, so that a male would know who
it was honorable to shoot.

Human battle dress
I guess, that if you look at imperial battle dress, then concievably all
(physical) customization would require would be remove some of the internal
padding in some places and put more padding in others.  After all, Imperials
have quite a few minor human races to deal with, so finding a 'neutral'
fitting that can be modified would be desirable for battle dress designers.
Minor human races seem to vary a great deal, thus I can imagine you'd have
do make the suit fairly modular so that you can adjust it to fit.

Solomani suits are probably going to be similar.

The Zhodani, on the other hand have fewer minor races to deal with.  Their
suits are probably going to be more geared toward the Zho normal.  Also,
their chest unit seems to be a lot more articulated than that of the
Imperial suit.  This suggests a rather tight fit.  Thus I think there is
going to Have to be different types for male and female.

Fitting into alien vacc suits
There is a bit in the back of Adv 12, secret of the ancients on humans trying
to fit into an ancient droyne vac suit. (shimmer suit?)  Difficult!  wrong
number fingers!  Wrong shape feet!  The legs go the wrong way for humans.
Same goes for Aslan suits (but if you roll boxcars?  Who knows?)

Cargo lifter capacity:
1 metric ton.  (slightly better than the standard lifter and half the cost.)
The Lifters I made and the standard ones are exactly the same size (400 liters)
But they are just pallets.  You can put as big a pile on it as you want, as
long as it weighs less than 1 ton.
(BTW, Ameer, my name has 2 g's in it.  Come on!  You see it on your breakfast
table every morning!:-)

Scott Kellogg
THEY'RE GRRRREAT!!!!:-)

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3477
Date:     Wed, 15 Jan 92 15:09:18 EST
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Starport Defenses

Bertil writes:
> 
>   One thing that I noticed in Hard Times is that the Strephonian era Imperium
> apparently were a relatively peaceful and trusting place. It is especially
> noted that "Many starports have emplaced missile batteries to repel unwanted
> visitors" and that cargo is now NAS-ed to detect stowaways.
>
>  I've always assumed that these measures were in effect. Some commercial
>airports in the world now have SAM-batteries, and almost all Swedish harbours
> have some form of coastal artillery dug into some appropriate island. Usually
>not manned, but it is there. As for NAS-ing: It is easy, it is fast, it is 
>cheap and I've included it in the "General Scan" done for a fee on demand
>along with densitometer and other scans for weapons and explosives.

I agree with Bertil here...I've assumed for a long time that these defenses 
were commonplace before the Rebellion.

Rob Dean


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3478
Date:     Wed, 15 Jan 92 15:05:03 EST
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Re:  (3423) Starport traffic

> From: jpb@umbio.med.miami.edu (Joe Block)
> 
> The recent discussion of the *large* amount of takeoffs and landings on the
> larger worlds (someone mentioned one every 1.4 seconds or so on Trin) 
> has forced
> me to give up on the idea of "one world, one starport."
> 

Actually, World Builder's Handbook addressed this point.  If your planet's
best starport is an A and you live on a high population world, it is extremely
likely that there are a couple of other A class facilities on the planet, as
well as several B and maybe C class, and most airports will count as an F or
G class spaceport as well.

Rob Dean


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3479
Date:     Wed, 15 Jan 92 15:26:54 EST
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Below Mininum TL Planets

> >From: Cynthia_Higginbotham
> >Rob Dean was wondering how many Spinward Marches worlds (pre-Rebellion)
> >could be considered failing or doomed by Hard Times standards.
> 
> The answer is that Hard Times dosen't provide standards to work
> out how the worlds of the Domain is affected by the hard times.
> 

Actually, the point of my question was this:

Hard Times establishes (for the first time) a firm set of rules regarding the
minimum tech level to maintain a planet under various adverse environmental
conditions.

All I wanted to know was how many planets were below the "minimum tech level"
in the standard Spinward Marches data, since each one would need a little
explanation, either of how it was dealing with its decline, or how it was
managing to sustain its population.

So, my question didn't directly deal with Hard Times.

Rob Dean


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3480
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: _Armourer_ skill
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 92 22:11:43 MET

Me:
>>Btw. I've decided to include a new skill in marine character
>>generation (and perhaps army too?) called 'armourer', and then
>>require armourer skill to care for high tech weapons (that is,
>>anything with electronic parts). A weapon skill would give a
>>default ability to field repair that particular weapon (possibly
>>electronics skill might too?), but proper maintenance and
>>especially proper repairs would require armourer skill.
>>
>>What do you think?
>
>Well, don't both Marines and Army have several entries for "Mechanical"
>and "Electronic" in the charts?  I'd be inclined to keep things simple <?>
>and say that repairs/fitting etc. of battledress required someone with
>a reasonable level of both skills.  Avoid unneeded skill specialization!

Unneeded? Don't you think it could be reasonable to distinguish between
the skills of an air/raft mechanic and a battle dress repairman?


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "Come all brother spacemen that travel along.
         Oh, pray come and tell me where the trade is all gone.
         Long time have I travelled, and I cannot find none."
         Ch: "And sing: All the hard times of the Empire.
              In the Empire are very hard times."
                                Traditional song.

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3481
Date:     Wed, 15 Jan 92 15:40:57 EST
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Re:  (3460) Fitting Battle Dresses

> From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
> Subject: (3460) Fitting Battle Dresses
> 
> Btw. I've decided to include a new skill in marine character
> generation (and perhaps army too?) called 'armourer', and then
> require armourer skill to care for high tech weapons (that is,
> anything with electronic parts). A weapon skill would give a
> default ability to field repair that particular weapon (possibly
> electronics skill might too?), but proper maintenance and
> especially proper repairs would require armorer skill.
> 
> What do you think?

Well, don't both Marines and Army have several entries for "Mechanical"
and "Electronic" in the charts?  I'd be inclined to keep things simple <?>
and say that repairs/fitting etc. of battledress required someone with
a reasonable level of both skills.  Avoid unneeded skill specialization!

Rob Dean


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3482
Date:     Wed, 15 Jan 92 15:45:32 EST
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Re:  (3467) Comments on a few topics...

> From: SULAIMAN@ecs.umass.edu
> Subject: (3467) Comments on a few topics...
> 
> 1. For all of the tonnage  stats based on Earth states, were the
> tonnages for oil tankers excluded? For most Terran nations oil
> imports(or exports) form a significant fraction of the total
> tonnage. I doubt if a similar situation exists for Traveller worlds
> unless the data represents total tonnage including insystem traffic
> which for a significant part could be hydrogen fuel tankers
> resupplying all starports. My understanding was that the numbers
> were trying to represent intra-system or jump traffic (paralleling
> intra-nation trade on Earth). I think a significant portion of the
> imports for Bangladesh and US (tonnage wise) will be oil.
> Especially considering the average displacement of an oil tanker vs
> a container ship.

It didn't say, since it was a just a summary chart.  I would agree that most
trade would not be of bulk materials in most circumstances.  In fact, I'd
think that we should look at the trade on the basis of most planets being
90-95% self-sufficient, with the imports being divided between critical
technology (military, power, communication) and luxuries (Coca-cola, video
games, hand carved statuettes of walrus ivory...)

Rob Dean


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3483
Date:     Wed, 15 Jan 92 16:20:37 EST
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Re:  _Armourer_ skill

In your letter dated Wed, 15 Jan 92 22:11:43 MET, you wrote:
>
> Unneeded? Don't you think it could be reasonable to distinguish between
> the skills of an air/raft mechanic and a battle dress repairman?
>

Seriously, no.  Not for a game with the average detail level of the skills
is what we already have.  Ask a pilot (like Scott Kellogg) if he thinks that
we should split aircraft pilot up by plane type...I don't think that it is
worth splitting Engineer up into Jump Drive Engineer, Maneuver Engineer and
Power Plant Engineer either.

Rob Dean
 

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3484
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 92 21:26:08 est
From: Bill Morrison <wbm@hpuerca.atl.hp.COM>
Subject: The sizing of battledress

>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> Scott Kellogg writes:
>> It is a question of the fitting of battle dress and combat armor.  Does
>> armor have to be fitted to the individual?  It seems to me that someone
>> would have a lot of trouble fitting into someone elses battle dress.

> Yes. Given that the battle dress has a rigid shell it may be
> possible to do somthing with internal padding, but male and
> female versions would at least be necessary, as well as
> different sizes.

I don't believe that a suit *has* to be fitted for each individual.
I will ammend this statement shortly, but I would like to justify it
with something I learned on a recent trip to the Marshall Space
Flight Center in Huntsville, Alabama -- they have a pretty neat space
history museum there. The space suits that were manufactured for the
Mercury program had each suit custom manufactured for each astronaut.
They made casts of each astronaut in toto. However, with current
technology, this is no longer necessary for the Shuttle astronauts.
They manufacture each part of a space suit in a variety od sizes.
Each astronaut is measured -- "size 7 glove, see bin 17; size 38
chest, see bin 22; size 34 waist with 31 inseam, see bin 49," etc.
Once they have all the pieces together, they take some final
measurements and do some tailoring. Also, I'm assuming that it is
impossible for a person with noticable differences in build to wear
to suit of someone else (height, weight, extra arms, whatever).

Now for my ammendment. As long as the person had at least the proper
components gathered, they would be able to wear the suit in at least
(and at most) a little comfort. For battledress, assembling the inner
suit will be this easy. However, they are also intended for extended
wear in unusual and harsh environments. This would mean more than simple
tailoring, but not much more. Also, I believe that a majority of the
time needed to build one of these monstrosities is adapting the
electronics, built-in power and weapons systems, and hardening the
suit (wouldn't do well to have a stray 22 round cause the power
plant to go up). This is also where the cost is.

>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> Btw. I've decided to include a new skill in marine character
> generation (and perhaps army too?) called 'armourer', and then
> require armourer skill to care for high tech weapons...
> What do you think?

I like it. Perhaps 2 skills: one for weapons and one for armour, or
one for personal weapons and armor and another for crew/vehicle
weapons and armor?

- --Bill Morrison
  wbm@hpuerca.atl.hp.com

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3485
Date:    Thu, 16 Jan 1992 0:27:40 -0600 (CST)
From: A_COPEAB@CCSVAX.SFASU.EDU (Brandon Cope)
Subject: battle suits, combat armor, vacc suits

Oops, better make that Battle Dress...

Battle Dress, depending on how you conceptually look at it, could be the
easiest or the hardest to crossfit. I'm not sure what MT says about it, but
I basically take the view that Battle Dress is the ultimate form of an armored
exoskeleton (in GURPS Space, for example, the first varieties of powered armor
are powered exoskeletons married to an armored vacc suit -- such a combination
is ugly and clumsy, but it is a primitive form of Battle Dress). At each TL
past introduction (I would put the armored exoskeleton at TL8), the exoskeleton
becomes lighter and faster. The armor of the suit improves with lighter and 
stronger materials coming out, and new electronic toys are added for combat.
Eventually, it becomes a gracefull and deadly weapon. Now, following this
evolution, Battle Dress would be easy to crossmatch. Its more like driving a 
car than wearing a suit of plate armor. Still, one suit of battle dress won't
fit everyone, but it will cover a wide range of body sizes. Also, custom
fitting doesn't make sense, to a point; why spend nearly a quarter of a million
credits on armor that only one person can wear without major modification? It
simply isn't cost efficient (whether for the Third Imperium in it's peak, fall,
or for the early Fourth Imperium). I know this goes against what I said about
battle dress in last night's post, and I apologize for that; I just had to
think on the topic a little longer.

Combat armor, unlike battle dress, needs to fit more precisely, since it is
more like old body armor. However, as someone pointed out (though perhaps not
regarding combat armor), you could make the combat armor in a piece-meal 
fashion. For example, the stormtrooper armor in Star Wars (not a very effective
version of combat armor, though) consists of about 20 or so individual sections
which interlock over a black thermal body suit to form a complete protective
suit. A person could wear combat armor fitted for someone else, but it would
probably not be very comfortable. However, as combat armor is fairly cheap with
regards to battle dress (1/10th, I think), such limitations would not be as
bad.

The emergency vacc suit I had in mind was one with arms, legs, and a head, one
that you could actually walk (waddle?) in. A vaccum-safe version of a survival
bubble is okay, but somtimes not adequate. 

With regards to a special skill with regards to repairing battle dress: don't
do it! Aside from the specific weapon skills in old Traveller (before the days
of Mercenary and High Guard), I can think of no other really specific skills.
In a game like Traveller where characters tend to get a very few general skills
for their age, it seems contrary to the spirit of the game to use specialized
skills. A combination of mechanic, electronic, and perhaps the battle dress
skill at some minus (-1 or -2) would do. You could even use the 'repair
defaults from weapon' idea -- it seems plausable that someone with Combat
Rifleman-5 would be able to do at least rudementary repairs on a damaged rifle.
Also, from a game balance view (I hate to use arguments like this...),
characters get very few skills -- forcing them to be specialists will tend to
make characters useless for most situations they face (anyone rememebr the old
'walking medic' stereotype of clerics in AD&D, where they were only trotted out
if someone needs to be healed or if undead needed to be turned?). General
skills keep the players involved more, because it means that each character
will be useful more often.  

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3486
From: christofer bertani <chrisber@gorn.echo.COM>
Subject: Fitting Battledress
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 92 22:53:39 PST

	I was always of the opinion (and this is how things were done
in the Traveller (Classic with in-house modifications and Striker 
combat system) campaign I was in, that battledress came in a few 
different sizes, about three or four, and possibly double that if 
there are different suits for different genders.  However, in order to 
actually wear the thing and move around in it, it had to be fitted to
you, a process taking about eight hours for someone with battledress
skill, and rather longer if you are fitting yourself.  Both the outer 
armor and the inner skeleton are adjustable in length for each piece,
(including torso, and each section of each limb) and in diameter in 
several places.  The different sizes of battledress reflect the largest
and smallest sizes they can handle.  All this assumes someone of normal 
build - anyone very obese would probably have to get custom-made 
battledress.  Once the battledress is fitted, the different parts 
lock and the armor cannot change, for example, armlength by accident.
(The manuals emphasize that, anyway! :-)
	The jumpsuit you wear next to your skin is tailored to prevent
chafing, and a lot can be done with padding, too.

	Different suits are needed for different races, although a 
skilled fitter might be able to get creative in a pinch and manage 
some major modifications.

As for the one-size-fits-all vacc suits, the one size doesn't fit anybody 
very well, and at lower tech levels is achieved by a variety of adjustable
straps on the outside of the suit.

	Chris Bertani		chrisber@cobalt.cco.caltech.edu

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Wow!  My first TML post!  Next thing I'll have to start posting vehicles!

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3487
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re: Earth's Tech Level?
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 92 12:33:00 MET

> From: richard@agora.rain.COM (Richard Johnson)
> Subject: (3473) Earth's Tech Level?
> 
> So _my_ reading of Earth's TL is ~6 with some anomalies.

  I'd interpret the WBH TL as overall 8 and low common 4. It is mentioned in 
an example (or maybe that was in Grand Cencus?) that it is very possible for
the median TL to be lower than the overall TL and that is what the 'lowest
common TL' is for.

> Richard Johnson     richard@agora.rain.com

- -bertil-
- -- 
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3488
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re: Vargr raiders in the Domain
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 92 13:07:41 MET

> >  Probably ex-navy ships from some of the Vargr states bordering the Imperium
> >with crews that got bored running routine patrols:)
> 
> Superficially plausible, but think about it a bit. You're the Domain admiral
> in charge of the coreward border and these 50.000 T raiders starts to appear.
> What do you do?
> 
>    50.000 T
>    raiders won't attack small worlds, because there's simply not enough
>    loot to satisfy the crew (or pay for the yearly maintenance). Nor
>    will they attack HP worlds, because the planetary defenses would be
>    too tough (look at the size of the Vargr border states. Most of them are
>    no larger than half a subsector).

  I think we have forgot the TL aspect in this discussion. I ran this kind
of action as the 'Battle of Naasakiira' Naasakiira (Corridor 1309 C556687-9 Ag 
Ni 623 Vg K7 V). I computed the number of ships the Naasakiira would have 
built for themselves and the ground-based installations, at the percentages 
given in 'Striker'. Against them, I put a force of 6 5000 vargr battalions of
TL 13 troops, 10 7000t ships and 20 800t corvettes. All in all a 150 to 1 
advantage in manpower (whole population against whole vargr force plus crew).
  I realize that this isn't the correct way of calculating the relative 
strength, but it might give some indication of the size of forces needed to 
take a small world. 
  In any case, without TL15 help, it would have been a walkover. The orbital
forces of the planet had 100% losses in the first 20 minute round. They and the
ground to space batteries had a hard time getting close to hitting the enemy,
and when they did the damage was medium. Meanwhile the enemy pounded the 
batteries with everything they had. I admit that I was biased in favour of
the defenders here: The attackers did only marginal damage against the batteries
but their objective was to get the swarms of gravcarriers to low orbit, 
where they could travel down on own power and destroy the batteries in close 
combat. If I had let them use the meson-guns against the surface batteries
according to the TL-firecontrol rules any TL15 help wouldn't have matteret
one bit.
  Down on the ground the situation were worse: The only weapon the defenders 
had that could penetrate the enemy gravcarriers were their tankguns and missiles
while the secondary armament of the attackers cut through all the defenders 
vehicles.
  Extending the example, I'd bet that a force of 250,000 could take on a planet
of 40,000,000 if they have a 4 tl advantage and take it with low to nonexistant
losses. They could possibly handle a 120,000,000 planet after a fight.

  The very high GNP figures for planets cuts both ways: It gives the planet a 
big defence and it gives the raiders a big booty.

>    And a Vargr state wouldn't let all
>    it's ships go raiding at the same time.

  I thought that this raiding buisness was the decsision of the individual
ships totally without regards to what their gov said. The governments then
made a virtue of a necessity when they claimed sovereignity of the looted
territory.

> 6) Then you go home. (No you don't, come to think about it. You go on
>    and re-integrates Corridor into the Domain. (And this time you
>    rectify an inexplicable mistake of the early 3rd Imperium and
>    grab all the worlds between the Great Rift and the Windhorn,
>    instead of stopping at the coreward border of the Sectors ;-))
 
  Administrating a hostile population numbering in the billions?! Yuck!

> Big fleets are just to identifiable and too tied to repair facilities
> to be used for raiding anybody bigger than yourself. Think about what
> happened to the Barbary States.

  They got Amphibious-Assault ships named after them? :)
 
>       Hans Rancke

- -bertil-
- -- 
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
*****************

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TML Bundles come from the archives of the Traveller Mailing List,
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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun Jan 19 21:00:24 PST 1992
From: traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com (TML Administrator)
Subject: TML Bundle #285: Table of Contents

-AMN- --Date--- --Sender--------- --Subject-----------------------------------
3489  16-Jan-92 d9bertil@dtek.cha Re: _Armourer_ skill << > From: Robert S. Dea
3490  16-Jan-92 Robert S. Dean    New Vehicle Design << Liirushu class System D
3491  16-Jan-92 d9bertil@dtek.cha Re: Starport Defenses << > From: Robert S. De
3492  16-Jan-92 Hans Rancke-Madse Re: Vargr raiders in the Domain << I wrote: >
3493  16-Jan-92 Hans Rancke-Madse Re: _Armourer_ skill. << >From: KELLOGG@ducva
3494  16-Jan-92 Robert S. Dean    Musings on Rules and War << I have returned t
3495  16-Jan-92 bonnevil@stolaf.e Re: (3447) Re: Ihatei in Deneb << I am repost
3496  16-Jan-92 bonnevil@stolaf.e Re: Ihatei Honor << Now that I think about it
3497  15-Jan-92 Adrian Hurt       Re: Earth's current tech level << Robert S. D
3498  16-Jan-92 Stuart Willard Da Looking for Book 8 Robots << As the subject l
3499  16-Jan-92 Robert S. Dean    TL8 and you... << In your letter dated Wed, 1
3500  16-Jan-92 Cynthia_Higginbot Earth's Tech level -- 8!! << Scott Kellogg wr
3501  16-Jan-92 Orcinus orca      Battle Dress: Hmm... << All this talk of batt
3502  17-Jan-92 jpb@umbio.med.mia Re: (3423) Starport traffic << I said > > > >
3503  17-Jan-92 Hans Rancke-Madse Aslan and Vargr in the Domain (just visiting)
3504  17-Jan-92 David Lester      Military Budgets << In conversation with an e
3505  17-Jan-92 richard@agora.rai Of TL's and MT designs << From Wednesday's TM
3506  17-Jan-92 Robert S. Dean    TL8 Spacecraft << The following design uses t
3507  17-Jan-92 gsw@whservd.att.C FOR SALE << I have a rather complete set of o

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3489
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re:  _Armourer_ skill
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 92 13:26:43 MET

> From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
> Subject: (3483)  Re:  _Armourer_ skill
> 
> I don't think that it is
> worth splitting Engineer up into Jump Drive Engineer, Maneuver Engineer and
> Power Plant Engineer either.

  We can see what skill-o-mania does to a game by studying Rollmaster. It is
questionable if the increase in unplayability is matched by an increase in
quality and realism. 

  BTW: Making it equally hard to get basic combat skills and some academic 
skills isn't very realistic either, but it is a tradeoff Traveller has made.

> Rob Dean

- -bertil-
- -- 
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3490
Date:     Thu, 16 Jan 92 9:53:37 EST
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  New Vehicle Design




Liirushu class System Defense Boat TL10

     The Liirushu ("Defender" in Old High Vilani) is a standard system de-
fense boat design of substantial antiquity. Although seldom built by worlds 
beyond the Vilani cultural region at the present, the Liirishus are a common 
sight in that region.  The appearance in not remarkable, being a standard 
boxy Vilani product.

  CraftID: Liirushu class SDB, TL10, MCr319.5 (Mass Cost MCr256)
     Hull: 360/900, Disp=400t, Config=4SL, Armor=52E, Loaded=10083t,
           Unloaded=9733t
    Power: 62/124, Fusion=5580MW, Duration=39.6 days at full power 
     Loco: 62/124, Maneuver=6 (StdGrav=44.2kt), MaxSpeed=1000kph, 
           Cruise=750kph, TrueAcc=4.38G (2.19G deepspace), 
           Agility=2 (deepspace)
     Comm: Radio=System, Laser=System, Maser=System
  Sensors: EMS Active(FarOrbit), EMS Passive(Interplanetary),
           ActObjScan=Rout, ActObjPin=Rout, PassEnScan=Rout
      Off: Hardpoints=4

                Missile=x02   BeamLaser=xx3
           Batteries      2               1
           Bearing        2               1

      Def: DefDM+7

               SandCaster=x04
           Batteries        1
           Bearing          1

  Control: Computer Mod4*3, 6*HeadsUpDisplay, 690*DynLink
    Accom: Crew=8 (2 bridge, 2 engineer, 2 gunners, 1 command, 1 medical),
           Staterooms=8, Env=basic env, basic ls, extended ls, inertial comp
    Other: Fuel=2650kl, Cargo=135kl, Missile Magazine=60kl (100b-r), Fuel
           Scoops, ObjSize=Large, EmLevel=Moderate

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3491
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re: Starport Defenses
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 92 18:21:09 MET

> From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
> Subject: (3477)  Starport Defenses
> 
> I've assumed for a long time that these defenses 
> were commonplace before the Rebellion.

  There is precedence in the rules for this: The Exit Visa adventure in the
Traveller Book talks about the players being "blaster out of the sky" if they
tries to take off without permission.

> Rob Dean

- -bertil- 
- -- 
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3492
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Vargr raiders in the Domain
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 92 19:43:47 MET

I wrote:
>> 50.000 T raiders won't attack small worlds, because there's simply not
>> enough loot to satisfy the crew (or pay for the yearly maintenance). Nor
>> will they attack HP worlds, because the planetary defenses would be
>> too tough (look at the size of the Vargr border states. Most of them are
>> no larger than half a subsector).

Bertil writes:
>  I think we have forgot the TL aspect in this discussion. I ran this kind of
>action as the 'Battle of Naasakiira' Naasakiira (Corridor 1309 C556687-9 Ag
>Ni 623 Vg K7 V). I computed the number of ships the Naasakiira would have
>built for themselves and the ground-based installations, at the percentages
>given in 'Striker'. Against them, I put a force of 6 5000 vargr battalions of
>TL 13 troops, 10 7000t ships and 20 800t corvettes. All in all a 150 to 1
>advantage in manpower (whole population against whole vargr force plus crew).

[Describes how the small invader force beat the pants off the defense.]

>  Extending the example, I'd bet that a force of 250,000 could take on a
>planet of 40,000,000 if they have a 4 tl advantage and take it with low to
>nonexistant losses. They could possibly handle a 120,000,000 planet after
>a fight.

I admit that I never worked out any battles like this, so I hadn't given
tech level differences much thought. But if they really are that important,
then that should work against the Vargr in general. Some Vargr may be able
to gain a local advantage once in a while, but since the average Vargr tech
level is lower than the average Imperial (the typical Vargr raiders shown in
_Rebellion_ are TL 11!), so much the worse for them. That means that the navy
needn't try to achieve parity with the raiders, but can distribute their tech
15 ships on more worlds. Give Naasakiira a brace of Azhantis and where would
your invader fleet have been? And how many Azhantis could the sub-sector that
Naasakiira is in afford? More than two per planet I'd guess.

>  The very high GNP figures for planets cuts both ways: It gives the planet
>a big defence and it gives the raiders a big booty.

Well, don't you think the citizens of Naasakiira realizes this? So don't you
think they would have bought tech 13-15 defenses from a nearby world? Even
if they have to import technicians to maintain them?

Still, I'm not saying that the Vargr couldn't mess up some planets if they
got lucky. But then what? They can't stay, because the relief fleet will
kick their ass if they do, and they can't go home, because the vengeance
(sorry, deterrent) fleet will kick their ass there if they do. Actually,
they propably do go home, and they may even escape the destruction of
their home planet's spaceyards, but whatever happens they won't use that
planet as a base any more. Pretty soon they'll run out of places to get
repaired and maintained. Then no more raiding. And they most certainly
won't conquer (as in move in and stay) any Domain planets. By 1118 at the
latest the frontier will be back to normal. That's assuming the Vargr got
so excited over the news about the Rebellion that they lost enough sense
to start anything in the first place (Which, I grant you, is extremely
likely).

>>   And a Vargr state wouldn't let all
>>   it's ships go raiding at the same time.
>
>  I thought that this raiding buisness was the decision of the individual
>ships totally without regards to what their gov said.

Well maybe. I think that any Vargr raider with any sense at all will keep
on the good side of the people who controls the spaceyard he needs to keep
his ship flying, but then who said that Vargr raiders had any sense?

>                                                     The governments then
>made a virtue of a necessity when they claimed sovereignity of the looted
>territory.

You mean, they don't control the looted planets at all? Just what I think
myself.

>>6) Then you go home. (No you don't, come to think about it. You go on
>>   and re-integrates Corridor into the Domain. (And this time you
>>   rectify an inexplicable mistake of the early 3rd Imperium and
>>   grab all the worlds between the Great Rift and the Windhorn,
>>   instead of stopping at the coreward border of the Sectors ;-))
>
>  Administrating a hostile population numbering in the billions?! Yuck!

Why not? The 2nd and 3rd Empire and the Solomani Confederation did it. I
could even give you an argument about how hostile they would be against a
power that could protect them against those incessant raids from their
naighbors, but actually I was just being sardonic about the way the 3rd
Empire stopped at the top of Corridor and Vland Sectors. The area above
is old 1st and 2nd Empire territory. Why stop precisely there? Ah well,
something to do with the treaty with the Julian League, I suppose. But I
still think it's odd.

>>Big fleets are just to identifiable and too tied to repair facilities
>>to be used for raiding anybody bigger than yourself. Think about what
>>happened to the Barbary States.
>
>  They got Amphibious-Assault ships named after them? :)

They used to be corsair havens until they got trounced and forced to stop
being corsair havens.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "And now to conclude and to finish my song.
         Let us hope that these hard times, they will not last long.
         I hope soon to have occasion to alter my song;
         and sing: All the good times of the Empire.
              In the Empire are jolly good times."

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3493
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: _Armourer_ skill.
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 92 20:12:28 MET

>From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
>Armorer Skill
>Well, I would say that an NCO with Battle Dress-2 should be able to fit
>and adjust armor to a person.  After all, normal military training would
>require that a person be able to strip, clean, maintain, etc etc their
>suit at Battle Dress-1.  Battle Dress-2 should allow you to follow cookbook
>instructions on how to adjust the suit.  Battle Dress-3 should allow you
>to be an expert at customization.

We've got different ideas about what a particular skill level means (mind
you, yours may be nearer GDWs intentions than mine). I use this rule of thumb:

0: You can use it, albeit badly.
1: You can use it adequately in routine situations.
2: You can use it well; you know what makes it tick.
3: You can make it tick.
4: You can make it tick real well.
5: You can make it tick "The Star Spangled Banner". ;-)


>Thus I would oppose introducing an
>Armorer skill.  (For heaven's sake it's tough enough to get battle dress
>skill in the first place!  Why make maintainance even HARDER on the players?)

I don't want my players to use battle dress more than absolutely necessary.
A battle dress is WAY too powerful for many situations. And you can't just
beef up the opposition. There is no middle ground against a battle dress.
Anything that can take out a BD will also take out the player character
inside. I don't want to be in a situation where I either has to let the
players walk all over my senario or kill them...

I suppose I could invent an ECM beamer or something...

And Robert S. Dean writes:
>I wrote:
>>
>>Unneeded? Don't you think it could be reasonable to distinguish between
>>the skills of an air/raft mechanic and a battle dress repairman?
>
>Seriously, no.  Not for a game with the average detail level of the skills
>is what we already have.  Ask a pilot (like Scott Kellogg) if he thinks that
>we should split aircraft pilot up by plane type...

Eh? Isn't that just what MegaTraveller does? And don't you think there's
greater difference between repairing air/rafts and battle dresses than
between flying one plane and another?

>I don't think that it is
>worth splitting Engineer up into Jump Drive Engineer, Maneuver Engineer and
>Power Plant Engineer either.

No, because any starship engineer needs to know about all three systems. But
I don't think a brigde builder should be allowed inside a starship engine
room. For that matter, I don't think a Wet Navy Navigator has any business
inside a starship control room, for all he knows a skill called navigation
(actually, I've renamed starship navigation 'astrogation' and use 'navigation'
only for the Wet Navy skill).

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "Come all brother spacemen that travel along.
         Oh, pray come and tell me where the trade is all gone.
         Long time have I travelled, and I cannot find none."
         Ch: "And sing: All the hard times of the Empire.
              In the Empire are very hard times."
                                Traditional song.

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3494
Date:     Thu, 16 Jan 92 15:27:07 EST
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Musings on Rules and War

I have returned to my office after an eight day course on Project Planning 
and Control.  During the course, I had plenty of time to sit and think 
about other things, primarily Traveller, and specifically Striker.

I wrote down about seven pages in my "go everywhere" notebook on a variety 
of topics, which I will reproduce here in more or less the order they came 
up.  Trying to sort this would be a problem.

Last summer, I started a discussion of future ground warfare that went on 
for several weeks, and the need for infantry in general warfare at TL15 was 
vigorously debated.  I decided to look at the question from the other side, 
in terms of what TL15 infantry would have available to them under the 
current rules (and the Striker rules) and whether it would be useful. 

The TL15 Infantry Squad: Would potentially consist of men with battledress, 
suit radio and perhaps maser communicators, an active EMS system of 5km or 
better range, and armed with a mixture of PGMP-14s and FGMP-15s.  Presuma-
bly gauss rifle, laser rifle, and grenade launcher units could be added as 
necessary, if you were anticipating a situation in which flaming things 
with a fusion gun was going to be inappropriate.  The trouble is that a 
fusion gun only has a penetration of 34 at effective range, and its effec-
tive range is only 450m.  For comparison, a TL13 4cm RAM grenade has an 
effective range of 370m with a HEAT penetration of 38 (and an extreme range 
that is about the same as the fusion gun, with a HEAT penetration of 38, 
where the fusion gun drops off to a penetration of 4).  Since the fusion 
gun and its power pack cost a total of Cr700,000, and a RAM grenade costs 
Cr20, there may be a little problem in our usual TL15 infantry concept. 
With TL15 battledress having an armor value of 18, and with the rules set 
up so that a penetration advantage of +8 is almost a sure kill, lower tech 
infantrymen with grenade launchers will give the TL15 battledress user a 
bit of a rough time. The only advantages the fusion gun has is that it 
won't run out of ammunition, and its shots can't be engaged by point de-
fense weapons as RAM grenades can be. The battledress user also has the 
problem of not having a weapon which will damage a 'tank'.  A little exper-
imentation shows that tanks with all-around armor values of 65-75 are not 
difficult to design, and can have acceptably high performance values de-
spite their high cost.  We've generally assumed that the infantry will 
carry missiles to give them a chance against tanks, but the best possible 
penetration value that can be achieved by any sort of projectile in the 
Striker weapon design system is 59.  This means that tanks that are com-
pletely invulnerable to man portable weapons are quite practical.  The 
situation doesn't look good for battledress--too many things can kill you, 
and you can't kill enough of them to make it cost effective.

Drone missiles and vehicles:  Infantry could control drone missiles and 
drone vehicles, but a drone vehicle with a large  energy weapon might as 
well be manned, since the men are likely to be cheaper than the drone 
brain, and the drone missile is limited to a maximum penetration value of 
59, as mentioned above.  Infantry that was using drones would presumably 
require maser communicators and computer support to maintain contact with 
the drones.  Since maser is limited to line of sight, I suppose that heavi-
ly protected relay drones would also be part of the inventory.

Communications:  I have this feeling at the back of my mind that jam-free 
communications capability is going to have a noticeable effect on tactics 
in the Traveller universe.  After thinking about it for a while, I decided 
that it might be possible to jam tight beam communications by blanketing 
the receiving unit with 'white noise' across the appropriate spectrum, but 
this would probably require a line of sight and a fairly precise targeting 
system.  If you've gotten that far, you might as well fire a weapon at the 
thing and be done with it.  (Hard kill beats soft kill in current U.S. Army 
jargon any day of the week.)

Scenario Planning for Striker:  This looks like a real problem.  I was 
thinking about it from the point of view of running something like a Vargr 
or pirate raid on a low population planet from start (arrival insystem of 
the raider spacecraft) through the raiding force jumping back out.  Before 
this game could be developed, some sort of 'air support' rules for ships in 
orbit would be needed.  After all, a planet could potentially launch a lot 
of missiles at an intruding spacecraft, and tanks with energy weapons, 
particularly lasers, could presumably engage in some sort of reasonably 
effective fire against spacecraft.  It seems to me like an 'armor value' or 
'hit modification' or something would need to be worked out for handling 
the effect of large layers of atmosphere on this sort of fire, and it would 
be necessary to decide whether to resolve it on the Striker system or the 
Mayday system tables.  In any case, Striker envisions a table covering 
about 1km by 3km, which can be a real problem when many vehicles are capa-
ble of speeds of 8-10km per 30 second combat turn.

Space Combat:  As part of this thinking, I started considering how to run 
the space combat section, which would come first, after all.  For the 
really picky, it should be noted that one can set either the hex size or 
the turn length for space combat if you want to use a Mayday-like system, 
but not both.  20 minutes works out to 14000km per hex, and the 25000km 
hexes recommended by the Referee's Manual corresponds to about 26 minutes 
per turn.  At the 14000/20 scale, the moon would be about 30 hexes from the 
earth, and would have an orbital speed of 1 hex per 12 turns.  Safe jump 
distance from earth would be 48 hexes.  After space combat was resolved, 
ground defenses would need to be considered.  

Planetary Defense:  We all know from our reading that huge meson guns are 
the main planetary defense system when these are available.  I wonder if it 
is possible to triangulate the position of these things in some way with 
meson screens?  In any case, lower population/lower resource/ lower tech 
level planets would have to make do with things like lasers and missiles.  
Lasers would be fairly easy to handle in Mayday.  The installations could 
be treated as turrets, and only damaged if a turret was hit on the damage 
distribution roll.  Ground installations would automatically have an agili-
ty of 0, although I suppose they might benefit from a computer modifier 
representing various sorts of electronic countermeasures.  The power plants 
could be attacked separately, and I imagine that most sites would have 
back-up power available and/or be able to draw from the commercial electri-
cal grid.  In some more backward locations, power plants for the defense 
lasers would be a very valuable commercial and industrial resource, and 
there would probably be a tendency for governments to divert their power 
for other uses.  In Striker terms, these laser sites could be almost arbi-
trarily heavily armored.  Still, missiles would be even less vulnerable, 
since they could be dispersed in one shot package launchers (silos).  I'd 
want to add missile design to the system, since it seems like planetary 
defense missiles in silos would not necessarily be restricted to a 50kg 
maximum mass.  Large missiles could be designed with some combination of 
the Special Supplement: Missiles, Robot, and Referee's Manual vehicle 
rules, and the cost of launchers worked out from Striker.  Control sites 
for either type of defenses might be dispersed, automated or hardened.  
Striker mentions ground based meson screens.  I'll have a go at figuring 
out what sort of power consumption these might have some time be using the 
dimensions of a spherical ship as an approximation.

Atmosphere: Consider the following for Mayday scale.  Shooting through an 
atmosphere has a 'to hit' modifier of +0 for vacuum/trace, +1 for very 
thin, +2 for thin, +3 for standard and +4 for dense.  This would apply in 
both directions to laser, plasma and fusion fire.

Ship Lasers:  It's always bothered me that all ship lasers are of the same 
energy consumption.  Chuck Gannon mentions adding small laser to ships for 
ground defense or whatever in the article on TL9 starships in Challenge 55, 
which seems plausible as far as it goes.  I'd like to see smaller lasers 
usable as point defense systems in space too, and suggest that you allow 
100MW lasers to be substituted for 250MW lasers in turrets as a quick fix.  
Such weapons would be restricted to firing at close range (later) or at 
missiles, using either the Ref's Manual/High Guard system or the Mayday 
system.

Missiles:  If you are using Ref's Manual influenced Mayday, which allows 
missiles to be in flight for several turns, it would be reasonable to allow 
(as in basic Mayday) missiles to be fired at before impact.  I'd add a 
'missile' sized category to the Ref's Manual DefDMs, of +3, for anything 
less than 1 displacement ton.  Missiles would not ordinarily be allowed a 
computer based defensive DM, but might be allowed one if they were in 
constant communication with their launching ship.  This, in conjunction 
with the communicator channels rules (or a modification that is more real-
istic) from the Referee's Companion would allow a natural limit to be 
placed on missile fire to get around the "1 shot per 20 minutes" problem we 
see now.  Command control missiles guided by the launching ship would be 
limited by comm channels, and self guided missiles not carrying their own 
computers would be more vulnerable to enemy point defenses.  I like systems 
with some sort of built in tradeoffs...

Striker to MT Conversions: One of MTs problems with the way they converted 
Striker is that energy weapons and fire control systems got better--too 
much better. Striker also had a very generous optional rule for firing at 
evading air targets.  Since this could cover grav tanks, I had a look at it 
with respect to the infamous "Phalanx" battlefield fire support vehicle.  
The Phalanx would be eligible for an evasion modifier on the 'to hit' roll 
of about -15.  This would mean that at effective range (8+ to hit) a mini-
mum modifier of +11 would be needed to attack it.  High rate of fire might 
be worth +5 or so, and an elite gunner could add another +3.  Without any 
further rules, however, it is quite simple in Striker to come up with a 
vehicle which _cannot_ be hit (making its armor level irrelevant, eh?).  
Using the Ref's manual design system additions, I'd insert a rule here that 
allowed a starship sized computer to add a plus to the 'to hit' roll. The 
Phalanx's Model 7 would be useful here, since it would give two evading 
Phalanxes some sort of chance to hit each other with rapid fire weapons and 
good gunners.

I think I'll cut things off here for the day.  Tomorrow's installment will 
include some thoughts about reworking Mayday as the small scale ship combat 
system.

Good Gaming,

Rob Dean
  



------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3495
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 92 15:48:22 CST
From: bonnevil@stolaf.edu (Steven Bonneville)
Subject: Re: (3447) Re: Ihatei in Deneb


I am reposting this message for Rob Dean, since it got lost....

Return-Path: <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Date:     Wed, 15 Jan 92 15:32:53 EST
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Re:  (3447) Re: Ihatei in Deneb

>
>The obliteration of Aki still confuses me...the ihatei can't be that stupid,
>can they?  How will the colonists there ever be able to trade peacefully with
>their neighbors, unless they intend to commit xenocide on all their neighbors?
>Besides, such an attack smacks of dishonorable tactics in any case -- the
>prey never stood a chance of a fair fight.
>

Actually, I'm left with the impression that Aslan honor doesn't automatically
extend to anyone who isn't Aslan.  I think it was the old Aliens 1: Aslan
module that mentioned that the Aslan/human wars in the Solomani Rim region
got out of hand because the Aslan viewed the humans as fighting without rules--
so their retstrained 'laws of war' didn't apply.  In fact, I was rather 
dismayed to read about some Imperial ambassador who arranged a proper 'by the
rules' Aslan-style clan war to settle the fate of disputed areas (in Dark 
Nebula sector), because that removed a lot of excuses that could be used to
explain the current situation.  (Things like escaltion getting out of hand
due to humans not acting 'Aslan-like' enough--may still wrok, but now depends
on a higher level of stupidity among the humans.)

More on Aslan soon...

 Rob Dean



------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3496
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 92 15:55:58 CST
From: bonnevil@stolaf.edu (Steven Bonneville)
Subject: Re:  Ihatei Honor


Now that I think about it some more, I agree with Rob.  Honor wouldn't 
apply to dishonorable opponents.  It still seems foolish to commit genocide
on an enemy planet when one day your colonists may want to trade with the
neighbors -- or defend themselvs from them.  It looks like the former
Imperials had better learn how to be honorable again, FAST!

- --Steve

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3497
From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Earth's current tech level
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 92 10:28:36 GMT

Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil> writes:
> 
> Both Fusion Power and Grav Units are TL 9 (nine).

True enough.  I've been using out-of-date, TL7 manuals for reference.  No
doubt, in a few years when we do have fusion power plants, GDW will change
things again and make grav units TL 10.  :-)

So when and where can I buy a laser carbine?

- -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3498
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1992 21:20:01 -0500
From: Stuart Willard Daniel <stuartd@huron.eecs.umich.edu>
Subject: Looking for Book 8 Robots


As the subject line says, I am trying to get a hold of a copy
of Book 8 on Robots. I would also like to find 101 Robots, if 
this is available.

If noone has an extra copy to sell, I would appreciate it if
someone could make a copy --- I will gladly reimburse them for
any reasonable amount.

Thanks!

stuartd
stuartd@eecs.umich.edu

- ---------------
WWII postcard to a soldier from his girlfriend:
"Sorry. Married your father. Mother."

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3499
Date:     Thu, 16 Jan 92 21:48:40 EST
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  TL8 and you...

In your letter dated Wed, 15 Jan 1992 11:21 CDT, you wrote:
>
> Adrian, Bertil and others have been talking about if earth is
> TL 8 or not.
> 
>  <Stuff deleted>
> I personally disagree with the above.  In my opinion it
> should be:
> TL 4 =American Civil War
> TL 5 =World War I
> TL 6 =World War II through mid Korean War
> TL 7 =Mid Korea up to mid Vietnam War
> TL 8 =Late Vietnam war up to today
> 
> The whole point of this is that Tech level can be pretty vague
> when you try to pin down 'This is TL 8'.
>

This is about the interpretation that I usually use, for much the same reason
as Scott.
 
> A great deal of the vehicles I have put up are TL 8.  (I may even
> have put out more Tech 8 stuff than the unbeatable Rob Dean!:-)

Actually, according to my notebooks, assuming I haven't lost anything of
yours, and not counting the great spaceship built around the TL8 nuclear
thermal rocket that I'll upload tomorrow, our count is now Me:40 You:21.
Nice try, though... (-: (-: (-:

Rob Dean



------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3500
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 92 22:51:55 CST
From: Cynthia_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US (Cynthia Higginbotham)
Subject: Earth's Tech level -- 8!!

 
     Scott Kellogg writes:
>No, I have'nt seen any Spinal mount partical accelerators in the
>world today, nor 250MW laser batteries, nor man portable laser
>weapons that can kill.
 
     As readers of old issues of Aviation Week & Space Technology may know,
the U.S. military has been playing around with lasers and particle weapons 
for years.  Back in the early 70's sometime the Navy was researching ship-
mounted particle weapons for point defense -- and then someone came along
and showed how you could do a better job with phased array radar and a 
very high rate-of-fire gun --> Phalanx.  The U.S. Army once looked at 
lasers as anti-tank weapons; and we all know about SDI lasers and particle
beams (i.e, "whadda you mean they don't have laser batteries!" as the 
detonation laser vaporizes your powerplant...).  Except for SDI, the
energy weapons programs have either been abandoned because, (a) as Classic
Traveller originally proposed, slug-throwers and explosive warheads are
far more cost-effective and efficient, or (b) have disappeared under a
layer of secrecy because they really are getting somewhere...
     I also note the existance of surgical lasers first used in the late
70's for removing cancer, etc. that literally vaporize the offending
tissue.
The problem with man-portable laser weapons has never been the laser, but
the battery for the damn thing...  And we could probably solve that problem
if we wanted to -- but bullets are cheaper and just as deadly, so why
bother?
     As far as I can tell, we (the so-called First World countries) are
quite definitely in the TL8 range.  Just because we toyed with a technology
and then decided not to build it because of economic or political reasons
does not mean that we CAN'T build it...  The first (and last) working
NERVA (== Hard Times' Nuclear thermal Rocket) was built in the early 60's
by
the U.S. Air Force..

                             --- Cynthia

- -- Via DLG Pro v0.985b

cynthia_higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3501
Date:     Thu, 16 Jan 92 22:44:36 PST
From: Orcinus orca <jokim@jarthur.Claremont.edu>
Subject:  Battle Dress:  Hmm...

All this talk of battle dresses and fitting the suit to the operator's
body so it acts as an extension of the body got me thinking...

If you made a really really big battle dress, and made the insides
so the operator doesn't have to have his/her/its leg in the battle
dress leg, arm in the BD arm, head in the BD head, etc. and fed all
the sensory information to wherever the head is; aside from having
the biggest, juciest, target on the battlefield, you'd have one of
those droid thing-a-ma-jigs you see on those Japanese cartoons like
BattleTech.

Perhaps I'd better quit this silliness...
- --
John H. Kim
jokim@jarthur.claremont.edu
uunet!jarthur!jokim

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3502
From: jpb@umbio.med.miami.edu (Joe Block)
Subject: Re:  (3423) Starport traffic
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 92 2:51:00 EST

 
I said
> > 
> > The recent discussion of the *large* amount of takeoffs and landings on the
> > larger worlds (someone mentioned one every 1.4 seconds or so on Trin) 
> > has forced
> > me to give up on the idea of "one world, one starport."
> > 
> 
and then Rob said
> Actually, World Builder's Handbook addressed this point.  If your planet's
> best starport is an A and you live on a high population world, it is extremely
> likely that there are a couple of other A class facilities on the planet, as
> well as several B and maybe C class, and most airports will count as an F or
> G class spaceport as well.

It sounds like the World Builder's Handbook began to address this problem.  On
a high traffic world though, it seems like there should be dozens, if not 
scores, of auxiliary landing facilities.



------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3503
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Aslan and Vargr in the Domain (just visiting)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 92 11:09:50 MET

I'm glad I'm not alone in my view that the Aslan and Vargr threats to the
Domain are implausible.

Steve Higginbotham writes:
>1) the Vargr. Face it. The Vargr aren't a credible threat to anyone.
>A Vargr Navy needs bases just like the next guys do.
>
>2) the Aslan. Has anyone ever done a detailed analysis of an assault
>across the Rift against an enemy operating close to his own bases? A
>TL15 fleet is MUCH better than a TL13 fleet. A TL16 fleet makes that
>TL15 fleet look kind of sick. The Domain can raise (under TCS
>guidelines) somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 trillion credit
>squadrons of TL16 warships (almost entirely from Vincennes/Deneb 1122).

I don't think that I'd allow Vincennes to have it's full supply of ships
at TL 16. For one thing it'll take some time (minimum 10 years) from the
time they converted their starship production to tech 16 to replace their
old tech 15 fleet. For another, no TL 16 planet in my universe is more
than borderline TL 16. I might allow them to have a prototype TL 16 courier
(and in my universe you can build a J7 engine at TL 16 ;-), but not an
entire fleet.

>That force alone should be worth 1500 squadrons of Ihatei. The TL 15
>squadrons from Glisten, Trin, Rhylanor, and Mora are worth 1000
>squadrons. All in all, the aslan are going to have a very hard time
>subjugating any part of the Domain (unless they earn their land by
>helping smash the Vargr to Coreward).

Which is such a lovely idea that I'm kinda sad that the Vargr really
isn't any threat. Perhaps we can use the idea that Imperial citizens
pay relatively less tax than citizens of small states to make the
Domain fleet smaller?

>Admittedly, the Aslan have enough firepower to be a threat in spite of
>the problems. Assuming they can operate without bases for extended
>periods.

And assuming they can agree on who goes first.

>The real question for the Aslan is why anyone in their right mind would
>go that far looking for land when most Aslan systems are NOWHERE NEAR
>FILLED UP. The Aslan systems include about the same fraction of High
>Pop worlds as the Imperial sectors do. So 92% of the Aslan systems have
>LARGE amounts of extra space for the taking. And they are all close by
>to home. Makes you wonder...

It does indeed. And I just checked the maps: There are _no_ aslan world on
the trailing side of the Great Rift that is not closer to Reaver's Deep
than to the Domain. And that's even if you just count the crossing as
ordinary space...


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "And now to conclude and to finish my song.
         Let us hope that these hard times, they will not last long.
         I hope soon to have occasion to alter my song;
         and sing: All the good times of the Empire.
              In the Empire are jolly good times."

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3504
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 92 09:03:55 GMT
From: David Lester <dlester@cs.man.ac.uk>
Subject: Military Budgets

In conversation with an economist last night I discovered that the
former Soviet Union's defense budget was about 40% GNP, two years ago.
This compares with the UK in 1944, where a full 52% GNP was being
used for military production.

How do we square these figures with those from Striker (3-15%)?

Just a thought...

- ---
David Lester, Manchester University, UK.

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3505
From: richard@agora.rain.COM (Richard Johnson)
Subject: Of TL's and MT designs
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 92 8:52:01 EST


>From Wednesday's TML:

Adrian Hurt Says:

:True enough.  I've been using out-of-date, TL7 manuals for reference.  No
:doubt, in a few years when we do have fusion power plants, GDW will change
:things again and make grav units TL 10.  :-)

Watch.  By then, nanotech and virtual reality will be so commonplace,
and physical immortality a kind of anachronistic jingle, we'll wonder
how this TL scheme ever came about anyway.  :=)

:So when and where can I buy a laser carbine?

Give me a couple of hundred thou, a couple of years, and Scott Kellogg,
Mark Cook and I will cook something up for you.



Next, Stuart Willard Daniel says:
:
:As the subject line says, I am trying to get a hold of a copy
:of Book 8 on Robots. I would also like to find 101 Robots, if 
:this is available.

I know I have a copy of book 8.  I'm not so sure about 101 Robots,
though.  However mine is trashed, because I naively believed GDW
would use that format forever, and cut all my little books up,
put holes in them, and stuffed them into notebooks (with notes,
of course).   Write to Mark Cook (markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.com) for
the address or an order form for the Weekend Warrior in LA.  It's
a nifty little game store that specializes in out-of-print stuff.
Let me know if you run into problems.


And finally, Robert S. Dean says:

:<Adrian and Bertil say>  [I think this was Adrian]
:> A great deal of the vehicles I have put up are TL 8.  (I may even
:> have put out more Tech 8 stuff than the unbeatable Rob Dean!:-)
:
:Actually, according to my notebooks, assuming I haven't lost anything of
:yours, and not counting the great spaceship built around the TL8 nuclear
:thermal rocket that I'll upload tomorrow, our count is now Me:40 You:21.
:Nice try, though... (-: (-: (-:

I assume at least one of you, perhaps all of you, use a spreadsheet to
help with your designs.  If you do, please send me a copy, or submit 
it to the CAT archives (with some instructions, hopefully), or something
like that.   Maybe, althogether, on some dry weekend, the TML can 
publish the "Ten items per system for thw Whole Imperium" vehicle
designs.  (Lessee- that's about 2000 each, right?) :=)

Anywaya - let me know how you prolific guys stay in shape.
- -- 
Richard Johnson     richard@agora.rain.com
"We've learned a great deal about how to keep the American people
pacified."   Ex-CIA director William Colby after the Church hearings

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3506
Date:     Fri, 17 Jan 92 12:36:40 EST
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  TL8 Spacecraft

The following design uses the nuclear thermal rocket introduced in Hard Times.

I haven't done a full comparison on delta-v's under a wide range of circum-
stances, but it looks like the nuc thermal is better than anything short of
a fusion rocket for deepspace use.  The power plant requirments will keep
it from generating enough thrust for a 1-G liftoff.

Rob Dean




Gagarin class Orbiter TL8

     The Gagarin class (named after a legendary Solomani space explorer) is a 
single stage to orbit launch vehicle with an additional capability for deep-
space missions of up to a couple of AUs.  A Gagarin is capable of lifting off 
from any human-inhabitable world with a full cargo load of up to 200 tons.  
With plans widely available from the Imperial Bureau of Standards as an IDP, 
Gagarins are becoming more common on backwater planets which are interested 
in retaining a native spaceflight capability in the current imperial diffi-
culties.

  CraftID: 200 ton, TL8, MCr83.591
     Hull: 180/450, Disp=200, Config=1AF, Armor=40C, Loaded=2525t,
           Unloaded=1835t
    Power: 4/8, Fission=100MW, duration=10 years, SolarCells=0.2MW
     Loco: 7/14, High Performance Rocket=3900t, duration=30 minutes, 4/8,
           Nuclear Thermal Rocket=750t, duration=14.3 hours, TrueAcc=1.54Gs 
           on rockets, 0.3Gs on nuclear
     Comm: Radio=System*2
  Sensors: Radar=Planetary, AdvImageEnhancement, ActObjScan=Diff, 
           ActOnjPin=Diff
      Off: Hardpoints=2
      Def: DefDM=+3
  Control: Computer Mod2bis*3, ElecLink*450
    Accom: Crew=2 (Pilot, Copilot), Passengers=4, Bunks=6, Env=basic env,
           basic ls, ext ls
    Other: NuclearFuel=10kl, CryogenicRocketFuel=1200kl, Hydrogen=1000kl, 
           CargoBay=200kl (14.8 displacement tons), ObjSize=Avg,
           EmLevel=Moderate

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3507
From: gsw@whservd.att.COM
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 92 12:40 EST
Subject: FOR SALE

I have a rather complete set of original Traveller books which are right
now going to waste in storage.  I also have some of the MegaTraveller
rules, which I haven't really needed (even as a GM, after a few years
of playing it becomes easy to "wing it" for informal gaming).

I'd be willing to sell any or all of it.  The days of serious hours of
role-playing are over for me.  I may buy the new Traveller if it's any
good.  We'll see.

I don't have a list handy, but I'll put it together over the weekend.
Basically, I have all of the black rule books and supplements, including
Book 0 and Supplement 5 (Azhanti High Lightning).  I have most of the
adventures and double-adventures, a number of the aliens books, and
other miscellany.  I also have some Traveller:2300 stuff and a number
of the MegaTraveller books.  I also have a few of the old Judges' Guild
publications.

I also have a rather complete set of AD&D and D&D rule books and dozens
of other games, some hardly used, if anyone is interested.

Stuart Daniel has already inquired about Book 8 and 101 Robots (both of
which I have).  I told him I'd first check to see if anyone wanted to
get a complete set for some reason.

If you have particular interests, e-mail or call me and I'll tell you
if I have what you're interested in.

I haven't priced anything yet.  I'm waiting for a few offers to come in.
I will check prices against those of a company that specializes in
out-of-print games, though.  I won't charge more than that, but I'm
going to use their catalog as a guide.

Jerry Williams
gsw@whservd.att.com
(908)953-0551(H)
(201)386-2059(W: 8-6 EST)

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
*****************

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TML Bundles come from the archives of the Traveller Mailing List,
maintained by James Perkins, traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed Feb  5 08:55:31 PST 1992
From: traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com (TML Administrator)
Subject: TML Bundle #286: Table of Contents

-AMN- --Date--- --Sender--------- --Subject-----------------------------------
3508  17-Jan-92 Steven Bonneville Astronomy Field Trip (Part 1?) << The recent 
3509  17-Jan-92 Brandon Cope      low vs high tech << pretty intresting seeing 
3510  17-Jan-92 Tiger             Ship finance & losses << Looking at the figur
3511  17-Jan-92 Adrian Hurt       Re: Earth's tech level << KELLOGG@ducvax.aubu
3512  16-Jan-92 Nick Christenson, Battledress, anti-matter and other stuff. << 
3513  17-Jan-92 Steven Bonneville Aslan & Density << Someone mentioned that man
3514  18-Jan-92 spg@alpha.sunques Infantry weapons. << This is mostly striker r
3515  18-Jan-92 Mark F. Cook      Location of Denebola Subsector << Steve Bonne
3516  18-Jan-92 Jack Dietz        Continuing the TL Debate << (Afraid I've been
3517  18-Jan-92 Jack Dietz        3G <-> Traveller << Has anyone prepared a lis
3518  19-Jan-92 Hans Rancke-Madse Alpha Crucis Subsectors << Mark F. Cook write
3519  19-Jan-92 Hans Rancke-Madse Re: Aslan and Density << Steven Bonneville wr
3520  19-Jan-92 Brandon Cope      re: (3501) Battle Dress: Hmm... << Well, actu
3521  19-Jan-92 KELLOGG@ducvax.au Skill Levels & Battle Dress (Plus a few odds 
3522  20-Jan-92 Michael A. Surman TL Loss & Trade << There has been quite a bit
3523  20-Jan-92 Brandon Cope      more bandwith on battlesuits and skills << Fr
3524  20-Jan-92 Dave Johnson      Tech Levels (Earth Tech Level) << Hi, With al
3525  21-Jan-92 Timothy Soholt    Battle Dress Compatability << Seems to me tha

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3508
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 92 12:32:23 CST
From: bonnevil@stolaf.edu (Steven Bonneville)
Subject: Astronomy Field Trip  (Part 1?)

The recent mention in S&A of the long-range Solomani explorations into the
Perseus Galactic Arm got me to thinking about where some real interstellar
structures should be in the Traveller universe.  Five Imperial sectors are
named after real stars, after all (Spica, Fornast, Alpha CRU, Deneb, and 
Antares).  Ever wonder what the sky might look like from, say, Vland? 
Regina?  Using an old copy of _Norton's Star Atlas_, I went on a trip to
Vland.  (Of course, in terms of the Traveller chronology, this is like
using an Egyptian chart from 1800 B.C., but oh well.)

Vland is fortunate enough to have two very bright stars in its sky.  Located
about seventy parsecs away from Vland is the M1Ib red supergiant the Vilani
call Mika, known to Terrans as Antares.  Seen from Vland, Antares has an
apparent magnitude of about -0.5, which if it were that bright in the Terran
sky, would make it their third brightest star.  More impressive still is
Deneb, only 65 parsecs away.  Deneb shines at the incredible apparent
magnitude of -3.1, four and a half times brighter than Terra's brightest
star.  Tourists from Mora won't be impressed.  From Mora (21 pcs.), Deneb
has an apparent magnitude of -5.6, two times brighter than *Venus* from
Earth, and probably visible far into daylight hours!

Unless you brought your PRIS binoculars, don't plan to find Terra from
Vland.  Sirius, the brightest star in Terra's sky, shines at a apparent
mag. of +7.8.  Think "Neptune".  Sol, at a range of 200 parsecs, is an
eleventh magnitude star.  Usually, people can only see down to the sixth
magnitude or so with the naked eye.

- ---------------------

In WBH, they say that supergiants should be rare.  They are!  I have
only found three others beyond Deneb and Antares so far. The three:
  Eakhoi    (2123 Dark Nebula)  F8 Ia
  Sardas    (0839 Mendan)       F0 Ib  M7 D
  ??????    (1530 Empty Qtr.)   M4 Ia  M4 D
Rare enough?  This is in the whole region of the Imperial Atlas!
Of course, whether these stars are real or which they are is another
question altogether....

I also have a request for the "old-style" Traveller players out there.
Remember that old map of Charted Space with the star field background?
Traveller Deluxe and "Library Data A-M" had copies of it.  I don't have
a copy myself, but I remember that it showed some bright star names on
it, as well as a few nebulae.  It would be interesting to know where
(what sector, roughly what part) some of these nebulae were placed.
For instance, do we know what Dark Nebula the sector of that name is
named after, according to Traveller?  I'm putting together a list of
stars/systems that I've seen referred to in sector library data, and will
post it if anybody is interested.

Incidentally, I haven't been able to find Spica, Alpha Crucis, or Fornast
yet (although I haven't looked for Fornast much), so if anyone has a hex
coordinate for them, I'd appreciate it.  For owners of "Solomani Rim":
what subsector of Alpha Crucis was named "Denebola"?  Any help with this
would be appreciated!

- --Steve

[Coming Soon? -- Part Two: Stars and Objects/Hex Locations]


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3509
Date:    Fri, 17 Jan 1992 13:56:42 -0600 (CST)
From: A_COPEAB@CCSVAX.SFASU.EDU (Brandon Cope)
Subject: low vs high tech

pretty intresting seeing that, with one shot, a little RAM-GL can be more
effective that a FGMP-15 (I believe that was the comparision). Granted the
RAM-GL has only 3 shots compared to the FGMP's multitude (I don't think
it's over 100). But when one shot can kill, it doesn't matter much for the
RAM-GL. Personally, I have always been a gauss-rifle fan; they are much 
cheaper than plasma and fusion weapons, have good ammo capacity, can use
RAM grenades, and have a good range. Plus, because of the economic situation
in my campaign, almost nobody uses battledress, and combat armor is only
issued to elite forces. Most use a version of cloth, with reflec over it 
(the major enemy of the major empire in my camapign prefers lasers, while
others still are ballistic).

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3510
From: Tiger <cmg394@cch.coventry.ac.uk>
Subject: Ship finance & losses
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 92 14:04:10 WET


Looking at the figures for probability of  misjumps  (Starship  Operators
Manual)  ,  I was wondering how the many small starships ever got someone
to agree to finance them ? 

The problem is this :

Given that a commercial starship will average about  2  jumps  per  month
over  it's 40 year repayment period, it will have made about one thousand
jumps by the time it's paid off.

Assuming it has a skilled engineer  and  doesn't  miss  any  maintenance,
etc,  it  will need to roll for a possible misjump only about one jump in
thirty-six (roll 2 '1's on 2d6). This gives about 28 possible mishaps. 

A  major  mishap, which is what is needed for a misjump, will occur about
one time in twelve (roll 11+ on 2d6 ).  This  works  out  as  around  2.3
actual misjumps per thousand. 

Assuming (from a guess at how many hexes have systems in them ) a  chance
of  something  under  50%  of  emerging  from  jumpspace  close enough to
somewhere to get rescued, etc, you get 1.5 unrecoverable misjumps per  40
years of ship life. 

Clearly,  the  Mega -corporate  bulk freighters, and large military ships
will be able to carry small, jump-capable lifeboats, but a 100t scout  or
a 200t merchant just won't have the space. 

The  question  is,  then, who's going to finance a starship that will, on
average,  be lost without trace one and a half  times  before  it's  paid
for ? 

This  all  depends  on  whether  you  want  jumps  to allow you to arrive
anywhere, even in deep space, or  if  you  prefer  jump  drives  to  only
operate  between  star  -systems, as has been suggested. If this isn't to
be the case, or if it doesn't hold true for misjumps, then there will  be
a  *lot*  of lost starships drifting in deep space, with almost no chance
of even the most long-term, detailed search ever locating any of  them  -
Great  idea  for  adventurers finding a 200-year old lost freighter, etc,
but really bad for interstellar free traders. 

I never really liked the idea of 40 -year  loans  anyway.  As  the  rules
stand,  you  can either go bankrupt carrying other peoples goods, or make
vast sums  on  a  few  profitable  routes,  with  little  middle  ground.
Changing  to  a  d-20 in new Traveller,  or whatever, is going to totally
mess up any kind of probabilitys, as you'll have as much chance  of  a  1
as  a  20.  If  they  don't fix the rest of the rules on trade,  starship
operations, and anything  else  that's  long -term,  it  won't  be  worth
travelling by car, let alone starship ! 

Next - Jump torpedo's :It seems they're indispensable, so how about...
And  - Why you don't need maneuver drives to move or be agile !
plus - Robot Drop-Tanks ?

Must get a new .sig file	Simon Anderson

- -- 

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3511
From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Earth's tech level
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 92 16:51:03 GMT

KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu writes:
>
> Supposedly, they recently found that Anti-matter will become
> STABLE at temperatures close to absolute zero.  Yes!  It will NOT
> EXPLODE!  I believe they were talking about storing it in
> crystalline form at liquid helium temperatures.

And there you have it.  Dilithium crystals at TL 8.

- ------------------------------
He also writes:
> Adrian, Bertil and others have been talking about if earth is
> TL 8 or not.

And, since GDW have changed the definition of TL 8, I now agree that it is.
(TL 8 means superconductors, which we do have.  It no longer means fusion
power and anti-grav, which we do not.)

> "A Scout crew, for example, would  take great intrest in whether
> the "low-tech" planet they were investigating could intercept
> them with a gun-armed ME-109, (sic) an F-12A multisonic
> interceptor carrying an air-to-air guided missile with a 5Kt.
> warhead or an SA-5 "Gammon ABM weapon with a 5 Megaton warhead
> (VERY interested), yet all three of these weapons are nominally
> tech 6!"
> 
> 	"TL 6.0 would be equivanent to 1940-45, and would include
> "Little Boy" and prop driven monoplanes.

Well ... I'd say that prop driven monoplanes are TL 5, because they were
around in WW 1.  The Junkers F1, which came out in 1918, even had a metal
skin, thus winning the 1918 award for worst-timed innovation - a metal
fighter at a time when Germany was short of metal.  To me, TL 6 means jets,
and TL 6.0 means jets like the He 178 and Gloster Whittle.

> 	TL 6.1 would be 1945-50 and include "Fat Man", the first
> jets and V-2 class rocket weapons.

Agreed, with the exception that TL 6.1 means the first operational jets,
e.g. Me 262, Meteor and Shooting Star.

> >From the Ref's handbook:
> TL 4 =1900
> TL 5 =1930
> TL 6 =1950
> TL 7 =1970
> TL 8 =1990
> TL 9 =2010
> 
> I personally disagree with the above.  In my opinion it
> should be:
> TL 4 =American Civil War
> TL 5 =World War I
> TL 6 =World War II through mid Korean War
> TL 7 =Mid Korea up to mid Vietnam War
> TL 8 =Late Vietnam war up to today

I'd say that WW1 marked the transition from TL 4 to TL 5, and WW 2 marked the
transition from TL 5 to TL 6.  Wars are great things for improving technology!
(Even if they aren't much good at anything else.)

>					According to COACC the F-14
> is a TL 8 aircraft (oops it was deployed in the early 70's!)
> The A-6, the A-10, the Harrier, the B-52, the Boeing 747, and
> many others are TL 8.  (The B-1 is TL 9) (sigh!)

The B-1 _looks_ TL 9, too!  But calling the B-52 TL 8 - that really shows
how much the definition of TL 8 has changed.  :-)

> No, I have'nt seen any Spinal mount partical accelerators in the
> world today, nor 250MW laser batteries, nor man portable laser
> weapons that can kill.

There was an article in a gun magazine some years ago about a laser rifle.
It caused quite a stir, to the point where the U.K. government got worried
because existing firearms legislation didn't cover something which didn't
fire a solid projectile.

Unfortunately, it turned out to be just an April Fool's hoax on the part of
the magazine!

As for particle accelerators and big lasers, I expect they are possible,
if someone put up the money.  It's small lasers that are the problem -
there is just no way today to have a portable power source which can put
out enough power to supply a laser weapon which can do more than blind
someone if it hits them square in the eye.

> Remember 2001?  we thought we were gonna have HAL in operation
> last sunday!  January 12th 1992!

And some people round here actually think they'd be told about it if such
a machine is developed.  :-)

> The point is that back when Trav came out, we thought technology
> was gonna go alot faster than it did.  (We also thought that the
> economy would keep us going at the rate we did!)  Let's face it,
> technology is not progressing at the rate it did back then.  Some
> of our top of the line fighter aircraft are 15-20 years old.

You think that's bad.  We've only recently finally got round to replacing
our Shackleton AEW aircraft, four-engined propellor types with radar going
back to WW2.

- -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3512
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 92 17:51:16 MST
From: npc@soliton.physics.arizona.edu (Nick Christenson, University of Arizona)
Subject: Battledress, anti-matter and other stuff.

[This msg was sent to TML's old home machine.  Please use
traveller@metolius.wr.tek.com, that's METOLIUS, now and in the future --
James]


First, on the subject of battledress, I don't think that extra skills
is a good idea.  If you need to, make Mechanical and/or Electronic
cascade skills.  In addition, I don't see anything wrong with having
Mech/Elec - 2 and Battledress -2 and being able to repair the 
equipment (I'm not sure if Mech or Elec would be more appropriate.)
If someone has experience fixing Howitzers and knows how an assault
rifle works (fires one well) I'd trust him to fix it even if he
hasn't done such a thing before.  He has the knowledge and technique,
just not the experience.  While this is not entirely accurate, it's
a fair fix for a relatively simple RPG system.

Also, as far as fitting goes, I think the modular fitting idea is
just fine.  Save your measurements next time you're fitted for a
tux and send them in to your local Battle Dress manufacturer.  Also,
is it so difficult to believe that at TL 12+ a very expensive 
piece of clothing (battledress) could alter itself somewhat to
compensate for personal differences?  Nanotechnology or materials
that can be fitted easily and then rigidified (new word)?  

Also, WRT anti-matter missiles, I assume these are anti-matter
warheads and not a means of supplying power.  If the TL level
for a power source is the TL at which it can be used as a weapon,
then fusion is TL 6 and we've had it for the better part of 4
decades.  I could believe that anti-matter as a power source
would follow more quickly then the rules would have us believe, 
maybe 4 TL's after a system's introduction as a weapon.  Then 
anti-matter would show up at TL 13, which isn't unreasonable.

Nick Christenson
npc@soliton.physics.arizona.edu

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3513
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 92 23:50:20 CST
From: bonnevil@stolaf.edu (Steven Bonneville)
Subject: Aslan & Density


Someone mentioned that many of the worlds in the Hierate seem to have plenty
of room for population expansion.  Perhaps.  However, remember the male
Aslan's drive for land?  Most of those areas in the inner Hierate will have
been claimed already, even if the actual land is still relatively unpopulated.
Those little worlds with populations in the 90 billion range are *seriously*
overpopulated from an Aslan point of view!

I agree, an attack on Reaver's Deep by the ihatei would make sense, if it
is taken as given that it makes sense they are attacking the Domain of 
Deneb.  But that ritual battle that settled the Aslan/Human Wars was fought
in the area, and perhaps the clans in the area are unwilling to cast that
treaty away lightly.  Deneb was never confronted by the Aslan, so if it is
no longer part of the Reaver's Deep area's government, it doesn't qualify
for protection (in some Aslans' eyes, anyway).  Different clans, different
policies....

- --Steve

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3514
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1992 01:23:58 -0700 (MST)
From: spg@alpha.sunquest.COM
Subject: Infantry weapons.

This is mostly striker related, but...
I've found the 6cm Recoilless Rifles to be immensely effective in "low-tech"
infantry situations.  Especially where range is the major consideration (vs.
line of site/close quarters.)  Elite gunners, and peons as the second "crew
member" are the way to go.

Just a thought,

Steve (SPG6) spg@alpha.sunquest.com

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3515
From: Mark F. Cook <markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.COM>
Subject: Location of Denebola Subsector
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 92 13:54:12 PST

Steve Bonneville writes:

> Incidentally, I haven't been able to find Spica, Alpha Crucis, or Fornast
> yet (although I haven't looked for Fornast much), so if anyone has a hex
> coordinate for them, I'd appreciate it.  For owners of "Solomani Rim":
> what subsector of Alpha Crucis was named "Denebola"?  Any help with this
> would be appreciated!

Steve, according the the sector archives (from GEnie) Denebola is
subsector L.  The entire sector looks like this:

    Alpha Crucis:
                A      Ximenes  C         D
                E      F        Orichalc  H
                I      J        K         Denebola
                M      N        O         Ziusudra

As you can see, only 4 of the subsectors have been named.

> For instance, do we know what Dark Nebula the sector of that name is
> named after, according to Traveller?  I'm putting together a list of
> stars/systems that I've seen referred to in sector library data, and will
> post it if anybody is interested.

Definitely post your list, when it's done.

How difficult is it for a non-astronomy literate person (me) to determine
where *real* stars are w/ respect to the Imperium (or specific locations
therein)?  I have a need (for the about-to-restart) TML PBEM to be able
to tell PCs where certain recognizable (i.e. bright or unusual) stellar
objects are in respect to their own location.  (Unfortunately, I can't
go into any more detail without spoiling the plot!)

Later,
	- Mark C.

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3516
From: cs161fbg@sdcc10.UCSD.EDU (Jack Dietz)
Subject: Continuing the TL Debate
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 92 18:41:09 PST

(Afraid I've been unable to reply for a while, will try to make up.)
 
Scott Kellogg writes:
> The problem we are dealing with is that Traveller came out in '79
> and had the '60's outlook of what technology was gonna do in the
> next 10 years.  Look at all the predictions that have gone wrong:
> 
> <list>
> 
> The point is that back when Trav came out, we thought technology
> was gonna go alot faster than it did.  (We also thought that the
> economy would keep us going at the rate we did!)  Let's face it,
> technology is not progressing at the rate it did back then.  Some
> of our top of the line fighter aircraft are 15-20 years old.  We
> went from P-51 mustangs to Tri-sonic aircraft in that amount of
> time! GEEZ!
> 
> Well, anyway, We are at the low end of TL 8, and have been for
> about 10+ years.  No we don't have fusion, no we don't have
> antigrav, but take a look at the ref's manual, those aren't TL 8
> any more!  When Trav first came out, they were, but then the
> plasma physicists said '20 more years folks' and MegaTrav made it
> TL 9.
 
I'm afraid I don't see that at all.  Our outlook on technology has
changed, true.  But it's been more of a shift of effort into different
areas.  For instance, computer technology.  Immeasurable bandwidth
has been consumed here and elsewhere about how we didn't expect the
personal computer revolution, how it left technology watchers with
their pants down and so on.  If one extrapolates, I'm sure your Hewlett-
Packard Snake workstation, MIPS R4000-based machine, or the like blows
away comparable computers listed for TL8.  With new display technologies
and (cross fingers) voice recognition we could build the TL11 'Computer,
Hand' with a non-holographic DDRH within 10 or 15 years.  The increasing
portability of telephones, laser printers, scanners, facsimile machines
and the like make their Traveller equivalents look almost silly.
 
What I'm driving at is that in the past ten or fifteen years things have
changed differently than the designers of Traveller thought they would.
When Mr Miller started this, words like 'cyberpunk' and 'nanotechnology'
hadn't been coined yet, many of the innovations of the Xerox PARC and the
MIT AI Lab had not been so promulgated, and the Japanese just made cars.
 
A few deprived individuals reading this may be running UUCP software
at home or at work on a small computer that may run at only one to five
VAX Units of Processing Speed and less than four MBytes of memory.
But most of the readers are on boxen on the net that in all likelyhood
have at least 8 megabytes of memory.  How much did that cost in 1973?
The only reliable figure I have for that time is for Honeywell Level 6
minicomputer's 16 Kword (32 Kbyte) memory board.  It used 4kx1 DRAM chips,
which were (almost) new then.  It cost $10,000 retail, $2000 to manufacture.
Using this figure, eight megabytes would half a million dollars just to
produce.  With markup, a cool $2,500,000.  This included the decoding and
refresh logic, unlike the average piece of memory sold today.
But one must admit that we've come a long way when you can go to your
local computer store and buy a $150 4 Mbyte memory module that takes less
than 1/20th the board area.  Then consider the processors, the hard disk
drives (gone from a 2 Mbyte pizza-box sized platter to 2.4 GByte 5.25"
form-factor boxes), the network hardware (in 1980 the 'experts' said
Ethernet would never work), and on down the line.
 
We don't have the jet fighters with the capabilities foretold by the
SR-71, the XB-70, the F-14.  We don't have a space station (sorry, Mir),
a lunar base.  But we could build them if the public called for them.
HAL was not born this year, true.  Neither was Robbie the Robot.  But
there are projects that may soon produce them. (Cyc, for instance.)
Sure, we don't have fusion, weather control, grav tech.  Cold fusion
(don't laugh) may yet produce answers: there are researchers at a liberal
arts college in Maryland that believe they have found a non-nuclear and
non-chemical explanation for the excess heat.  And British researchers
just fired off a test which produced the first controlled fusion event.
 
They didn't lie; no-one's crystal ball is without a flaw.  In some ways,
we're doing better than anyone had dreamed.  In others, we're behind.
But we're getting there.  Doomsayers have prophesied for the past ten
years that we're about to run out of improvements to silicon.  They've
also said that we would run out of room to expand, not to mention blow
up the world.  Now they say we've irrevocably poisoned this planet.
And progress continues.
 
I'd say we're TL 8 in most respects.  But we are not straight TL 8 by
any means.  That's not to say that _we're_ wrong.  Rather, either the
scale should be redefined, or split into its component parts.  Or both.
And I don't think that the fact that we don't have grav control is a
fault of ours.  The game designers were just a little overly optimistic.
 
Be patient.  We're getting there.
 
> Fade out grumbling...
> 
> Scott Kellogg
 
<grin>
 
Jack Dietz
// jdietz@ucsd.edu

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3517
From: cs161fbg@sdcc10.UCSD.EDU (Jack Dietz)
Subject: 3G <-> Traveller
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 92 18:42:14 PST

Has anyone prepared a list of the modifications necessary for weapons
designed with 3G to be used with Traveller?  I assume most of them are
common sense, but I am wondering about converting tech levels and how
the weapons compare to the official ones.
 
If so, please send them to me.
 
Thanks in advance,
 
Jack Dietz.
// jdietz@ucsd.edu

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3518
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Alpha Crucis Subsectors
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 92 14:26:57 MET

Mark F. Cook writes:

>Steve Bonneville writes:
>> Incidentally, I haven't been able to find Spica, Alpha Crucis, or Fornast
>> yet (although I haven't looked for Fornast much), so if anyone has a hex
>> coordinate for them, I'd appreciate it.  For owners of "Solomani Rim":
>> what subsector of Alpha Crucis was named "Denebola"?  Any help with this
>> would be appreciated!
>
>Steve, according the the sector archives (from GEnie) Denebola is
>subsector L.  The entire sector looks like this:
>
>    Alpha Crucis:
>                A      Ximenes  C         D
>                E      F        Orichalc  H
>                I      J        K         Denebola
>                M      N        O         Ziusudra
>
>As you can see, only 4 of the subsectors have been named.

According to _Solomani Rim_ the four names you mention are the
names of subsectors A, E, I and M respectively.

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "Come all brother spacemen that travel along.
         Oh, pray come and tell me where the trade is all gone.
         Long time have I travelled, and I cannot find none."
         Ch: "And sing: All the hard times of the Empire.
              In the Empire are very hard times."
                                Traditional song.

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3519
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Aslan and Density
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 92 14:35:43 MET

Steven Bonneville writes:

>I agree, an attack on Reaver's Deep by the ihatei would make sense, if it is
>taken as given that it makes sense they are attacking the Domain of Deneb.

It makes a lot more sense than an attack on the Domain. A few
of the most powerful clans might actually have a chance to get
something out of an attack on Reaver's Deep.

>But that ritual battle that settled the Aslan/Human Wars was fought
>in the area, and perhaps the clans in the area are unwilling to cast that
>treaty away lightly. Deneb was never confronted by the Aslan, so if it is
>no longer part of the Reaver's Deep area's government, it doesn't qualify
>for protection (in some Aslans' eyes, anyway).  Different clans, different
>policies....

Plausible, but that still dosen't remove the objection of the
Domain being too tough a nut for any single clan to handle (and
that's before we even explore the possibility of allying with
some Aslan clans against other Aslan clans  -  a very real
possibility according to what we've been told about Aslans).
The crucial problem remains: Who goes first?


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "And now to conclude and to finish my song.
         Let us hope that these hard times, they will not last long.
         I hope soon to have occasion to alter my song;
         and sing: All the good times of the Empire.
              In the Empire are jolly good times."

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3520
Date:    Sun, 19 Jan 1992 12:47:44 -0600 (CST)
From: A_COPEAB@CCSVAX.SFASU.EDU (Brandon Cope)
Subject: re: (3501) Battle Dress: Hmm...

Well, actually I don't have problems with mini-mechs (those under 10 tons).
The mecha from Battletech are a little bit better than those of Japanese
animation, from a reality standpoint. However, unlike the creators of
Battletech, I don't really ever see mecha being much of a combat factor. They
are slower than tanks of the same tonnage (usually) and cost too much more 
than a tank. The only real advantage they have is mobility. However, when
grav vehicles come in, this is cancelled out (granted, a grav vehicle
is even MORE expensive, but it makes ground-contact vehicles very vulnerable).
Really, mecha are good at about TL8-9, in light tonnages (5-25), serving
as scouts, recon, and highly mobile fire support for ground troops.


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3521
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1992 15:27 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: Skill Levels & Battle Dress	(Plus a few odds & ends)

A few miscellaneous things:

Skill Levels and their meanings (In my book)
(Using Ground Car as an example)
Ground Car-0	(Know how to drive, fill the tank, when to get routine
		maintainance, knows when car is malfunctioning.)
Ground Car-1	Can Drive in bad weather, diagnose of minor faults, can
		perform minor maintainance: change oil & filters
Ground Car-2	Can Drive in bad weather at speed.  Perform most maintainance
Ground Car-3	Professional Racer.  Can overhaul engine & transmission.
Ground Car-4	A.J. Foyt
Ground Car-5	Speed Racer
Ground Car-6	Racer-X

(Using Hand gun)
Hand Gun-0	Can point the gun and shoot it.  Knows how to reload
Hand Gun-1	Can strip and reassemble it under battle field conditions
Hand Gun-2	Can strip weapon & reassemble blind folded
Hand Gun-3	Competition level marksman
Hand Gun-4	Olympic level marksman
(Please note, I am Ground Car-1, and Hand Gun-0.)
I have no military training what so ever.  But it appears that the average
guy who goes though boot camp learns an awful lot about guns.  And initial
training in Trav is Rifle-1.  Any body with more experience in this please
speak up.

It herefore seems to me that Battle Dress-1, would give the user a damn
good knowlege of the system that is there to keep him ALIVE.  Marines
would be sleeping in the things in boot camp.  Probably the best thing
on the subject of training in battledress is in Joe Haldeman's "The
Forever War".  Now it seems to me that a drill sargent ought to be able
to fix his men up in this stuff.  His skill levels would be around
Battle Dress-2 or 3.   (I would guess)

The system is gonna have to be easy to customize if you have the proper
tools.  I don't think the Imperial Army is going to be expecting its troops
to be geniuses...  So, as (Somebody who's name escapes me) suggested, it
is probably going to be an affair of different sized components.
	(Different hand size, different arm size...)
Differing hip and chest units for different sexes.  After all, different
relief tubes will have to be installed, and differing padding may be needed.
	Problem!  This idea of different sizes runs contrary to the spirit
of published stuff.  In The Spinward Marches Campaign, the characters come
across containerized suits of Battle Dress and are allowed to use them if
they can.  Well, I don't know what to think really...  Maybe they are built
with sufficient variability of size that an experienced person can alter them
to size.  (That is my best guess)
	So, looking at the above, one might have to have a skill level of
at least Battle Dress-1 or 2 to look at another person in battle dress and
know if it is a woman or not.

Richard:
I do use a spreadsheet I built up with Lotus 1-2-3, unfortunately, it is a
major mess to use.  I can use it becaue I know how it works.  But, trying
to give it to someone else would be difficult.  To explain how it works
would take quite some time.    I'm sure there are other's out there with
better ones.  (Rob Dean does all his calculations by hand though...)
(and yes, he does take top honors for TL8 :-)

Also Richard, Uhh... I'm afraid, I fall into the Laser Weapons-1 range.
Take an Argon Ion (or Krypton Ion) Laser, and I can clean it, run it,
change filters, change wavelengths, get a good beam out of it,
But as for designing a laser carbine?  No way!
	I'm just a laser jock, I can ride 'em, I know what they do, but don't
ask me how they work man! :-)  (God!!  I sound like a Vilani:-(  )

Scott Kellogg
PS.  The Tech-8 versions of the A-6, and the B-52, are for the updated
versions that are still in service.

Also, a Shakleton sure would look nice in the Confederate Air Force.  Just
put 'em back into the Lancaster configuration...

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3522
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 92 08:52:17 CST
From: surman@vortex.lgs.lsu.edu (Michael A. Surman)
Subject: TL Loss & Trade

There has been quite a bit of traffic on tech levels and this has me
thinking about tech level loss as a result of the rebellion. (I just
purchased Hard Times but haven't had a chance to look at it so maybe
some of this is addressed in there.)

My question is this: How does a planet maintain the loss of its tech
level? If a planet went from TL 12 to TL 9 it wouldn't take long to
get back to 12. It may take awhile to spread over the entire planet
but it would occur. And it would occur much more quickly than the 
first time since the knowledge is still there. 

Is the loss of tech levels associated with industrial centers? This
would make sense since if the industrial base is destroyed then it
becomes difficult to maintain current TL items. And these would be
prime targets in any battle. 

However, even if only the tiny centers survived the government would
step in and take control inorder keep existing TL items operational.
However, if all means of idustry were destroyed then the majority of 
the population would be destroyed as well and the fall in tech level
would be even greater.

Or is the loss associated with mass biological weapons killing people?
Which, to me, would result in a greater loss of TL's also.

The other point is: Why are planets being attacked to begin with? If
one faction attacks a planet because it sides with another is the 
attack punishment or retribution? If it's punishment the I can see
a few centers destroyed but if it's restribution I could understand
a more complete destruction. How ingrained is the "Save the real
estate." syndome? As in: Why aren't weapons of mass destruction used?

With all of the traffic generated on the TML about planet defenses
even light attacks seem too difficult to accomplish, especially with
high tech worlds. 

It was also brought up in an earlier posting, I forget who, but they
mentioned that trade, unbeknownst to us, is really more important than
the rules originally stated. The collapse of some economies resulted
from a loss trade.

Two things could result from this. The planet is too much of a hot spot
that no trader would be willing to go there, in which case the planet
has to develop on its own. Or the area has quietd down enough that it
would develop into a prime trade route. Any planet that lost TL's would
want to get them back and as quickly as it could. If it was a prime
trade center before it would definitely be one now.

Mike Surman


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3523
Date:    Mon, 20 Jan 1992 11:57:58 -0600 (CST)
From: A_COPEAB@CCSVAX.SFASU.EDU (Brandon Cope)
Subject: more bandwith on battlesuits and skills

>From Scott Kellogg:

>Skill Levels and their meanings (In my book)
>(Using Ground Car as an example)
>Ground Car-0	(Know how to drive, fill the tank, when to get routine
		maintainance, knows when car is malfunctioning.)
>Ground Car-1	Can Drive in bad weather, diagnose of minor faults, can
		perform minor maintainance: change oil & filters
>Ground Car-2	Can Drive in bad weather at speed.  Perform most maintainance
>Ground Car-3	Professional Racer.  Can overhaul engine & transmission.
>Ground Car-4	A.J. Foyt
>Ground Car-5	Speed Racer
>Ground Car-6	Racer-X

	You remember Speed Racer, too?... ;-)

>(Using Hand gun)
>Hand Gun-0	Can point the gun and shoot it.  Knows how to reload
>Hand Gun-1	Can strip and reassemble it under battle field conditions
>Hand Gun-2	Can strip weapon & reassemble blind folded
>Hand Gun-3	Competition level marksman
>Hand Gun-4	Olympic level marksman
>(Please note, I am Ground Car-1, and Hand Gun-0.)

	Same skills with me, though I probaly would have something like a
Knowledge(firearms/20th century)-2 or 3... 
	These skill levels seem okay. I generally have considered 
level-5 the 'master' skill level; For example, Han Solo had a piloting of
at least 5, and Scotty had an engineering of at least 5. Two character's
in my campaigns have managed this level (both scouts), one in piloting
and the other in electronics.

>It herefore seems to me that Battle Dress-1, would give the user a damn
>good knowlege of the system that is there to keep him ALIVE.  Marines
>would be sleeping in the things in boot camp.  Probably the best thing
>on the subject of training in battledress is in Joe Haldeman's "The
>Forever War".  Now it seems to me that a drill sargent ought to be able
>to fix his men up in this stuff.  His skill levels would be around
>Battle Dress-2 or 3.   (I would guess)

	Never read the book, and might not have the chance to for awhile
(being an English major will do that...). I do agree with this, though.
The armor is just as important to the marine as his weapon; he (or she)
will know it inside and out as well as can be expected for the amount
of training (ie, skill level) given. Somehow, visons of _Full_Metal_Jacket_
and the marine who lost it spring to mind here...

>	So, looking at the above, one might have to have a skill level of
>at least Battle Dress-1 or 2 to look at another person in battle dress and
>know if it is a woman or not.
	
	Then again, with it being a armoed, sealed suit, you might not know what
was in it until you blow it apart...


>Also, a Shakleton sure would look nice in the Confederate Air Force.  Just
>put 'em back into the Lancaster configuration...
	
	Okay, what are these two craft?... (my aircraft knowledge is WWII)

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3524
From: Dave Johnson <D.M.Johnson@newcastle.ac.uk>
Subject: Tech Levels (Earth Tech Level)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 92 11:30:16 WET

Hi,
        With all this talk about earth's current tech level, and what tech
level 8 is ? and the problems of developing an portable laser system. The
research the Newcastle is doing (or was doing, there have been some protests)
for SDI has found it takes them about a week to charge to charge the laser up
to an energy level powerful enough to take out a missile with a pulse 1 metre
long. This doesn't look good for a rapid defense mechanism

Dave J.


- --

+------------------------------------+-----------------------------------+
| David M. Johnson                   |If the radiance of a thousand suns |
| c/o Electrical and Electronic Eng. |  were to burst at once in the sky,|
|     Merz Court                     |That would be like the splendor    |
|     Newcastle University           |  of the Mighty One...             |
|     Newcastle upon Tyne            |I am become Death                  |
|     NE1 7RU                        |  The destroyer of worlds.         |
+------------------------------------+                                   |
|Janet : D.M.Johnson@uk.ac.newcastle |                                   |
|ARPA  : D.M.Johnson@newcastle.ac.uk |               The Mahbharata.     |
|UUCP  : ...ukc!newcastle!D.M.Johnson|                                   |
+------------------------------------+-----------------------------------+


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3525
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 92 2:01:05 PST
From: Timothy Soholt <soholt@aludra.usc.edu>
Subject: Battle Dress Compatability

Seems to me that most of the major differences between two peoples' suits
would be internal (except, of course, for gross body volume and basic
distribution thereof). By TL13, we're getting holodynamic controls, so I
don't think it's much of a stretch to postulate internal systems which scan
the operator's body and use some sort of "memory material" to modify the
padding to fit the current operator. Now, if you had, for instance, 
Michael J. Fox trying to wear Battle Dress designed for Hulk Hogan, he
might have a little trouble because there's simply not enough padding
to give him a snug fit. And, of course, the Hulkster simply wouldn't 
fit in Fox's suit. As for telling if an operator is male or female
from the outside, there's a big difference between the way a woman
walks and the way a man walks. Someone _could_ try to change their
style of walking, but I don't imagine they'd want to for normal
operations. I'd use the following task in any situation where someone
wants to know if a muffled figure is male or female:

     To identify the gender of a muffled figure:
     Difficult, Int, Disguise (Uncertain, Unskilled OK)
     Referee: On a result of Total Truth, the observer is
     certain the character is the correct gender. On a result
     of some truth, the observer is reasonably sure of the gen-
     der of the figure. On a result of No Truth, the observer
     is uncertain. On a mishap, the observer is certain the
     figure is the wrong gender. Increase the difficulty by
     one for reasonably similar and/or familiar races, and by
     two for unfamiliar, exotic races.

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
*****************

From jamesp@metolius.wr.tek.com Thu Jan 30 01:52:08 1992
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To: dan@engrg.uwo.ca (Dan Corrin), bfwong@ocf.berkeley.edu (Raven Blackburn),
        anthony@cs.pitt.edu (Michael Anthony Kapolka),
        mcknight@f104.n170.z1.fidonet.org (Chuck McKnight),
        fantasci!traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (Joseph "Jo" E Poplawski),
        jamesp@metolius.wr.tek.com (James T. Perkins)
Subject: TML Bundle #287: Msgs 3526-3549
Reply-To: traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com (TML Administrator)
Precedence: bulk
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 92 21:00:17 PST
From: James T Perkins <jamesp@metolius.wr.tek.com>
Status: R


TML Bundles come from the archives of the Traveller Mailing List,
maintained by James Perkins, traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed Jan 29 21:00:13 PST 1992
From: traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com (TML Administrator)
Subject: TML Bundle #287: Table of Contents

-AMN- --Date--- --Sender--------- --Subject-----------------------------------
3526  21-Jan-92 gsw@whservd.att.C GAMES FOR SALE (1) << Here is the first insta
3527  21-Jan-92 Hans Rancke-Madse Re: Skill level levels << > Brandon Cope writ
3528  21-Jan-92 traveller@metoliu TML msg 3528 irretrievably lost << THis messa
3529  22-Jan-92 d9bertil@dtek.cha Re: TL Loss & Trade << > From: surman@vortex.
3530  22-Jan-92 d9bertil@dtek.cha Re: 3G <-> Traveller << > From: cs161fbg@sdcc
3531  22-Jan-92 richard@agora.rai Rebirth of Empire << I was getting all set to
3532  22-Jan-92 KELLOGG@ducvax.au Space Planes and TL 6 Vac Suits << I just got
3533  23-Jan-92 lyle@ecn.purdue.e  << -----------------------------------------
3534  23-Jan-92 Leonard Erickson  Re: (3532) Space Planes and TL 6 Vac Suits <<
3535  23-Jan-92 d9bertil@dtek.cha Re: Rebirth of Empire << > From: richard@agor
3536  23-Jan-92 A_COPEAB@CCSVAX.S skill levels revisited << Hmm, perhaps I shou
3537  23-Jan-92 gsw@whservd.att.C Re: GAMES FOR SALE << When I posted the game 
3538  23-Jan-92 Stuart Willard Da AntiMatter Fuel Availability << I've been toy
3539  23-Jan-92 KELLOGG@ducvax.au Re: Skill level interpretation << Hans Rancke
3540  21-Jan-92 bmb@bluemoon.rn.C Re: TML nightly: Msgs 3459-3459 V31#18 << iuv
3541  21-Jan-92 metolius.WR.TEK.C Is there an archive for this mailing list? <<
3542  23-Jan-92 d9bertil@dtek.cha GOTHCON XVI << GOTHCON XVI The 1992 GOTHCON g
3543  23-Jan-92 James T Perkins   Re: Is there an archive for this mailing list
3544  23-Jan-92 James T Perkins   GEnie Traveller Round Table Discussion << Wel
3545  23-Jan-92 KELLOGG@ducvax.au Inflatable Battle Dress? << Ok, how about thi
3546  23-Jan-92 William Dow Riede Hard Times/ Fusion rockets << Greetings all -
3547  24-Jan-92 "Carl Fago"       Re: GEnie Roundtable Discussion << So far as 
3548  24-Jan-92 "Doc Kinne: User  Killer Computer Virus???? << Greetings Folks:
3549  24-Jan-92 A_COPEAB@CCSVAX.S too-heavy ships, battle dress, other junk << 

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3526
From: gsw@whservd.att.COM
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 92 11:43 EST
Subject: GAMES FOR SALE (1)

Here is the first installment in a series of listing of games for
sale.  I have a large collection of Traveller and GURPS stuff.  I
also have a large collection of D&D stuff, but that is not listed
here (wait for the second installment).  A few of the more-used
games have broken boxes (labelled "box broken") -- some of these
boxes may be missing.  Otherwise, most of the games are in pretty
good shape.  Descriptions follow the major headings.
- --------------------
CLASSIC TRAVELLER - in general well used but very well kept.  The
Judges Guild material I got used from a friend and is not in as
good condition.

Rules:
All Books (0-8)
All Supplements (1-13)
Alien modules 2 (K'Kree) & 6 (Solomani)
101 Robots

Boxed sets:
Triplanetary
Imperium
Azhanti High Lightning (box broken)

Campaigns/sector data:
Atlas of the Imperium
Glimmerdrift Reaches (Judges Guild)

Modules:
Habor Parn (Group One)
Marinagua (Group One)
Nithus (Group One)
Geptorem (Group One)
Drakne Station (Judges Guild)
Adventures 1 (Kinunir), 4 (Leviathan), 5 (Trillion Credit Squadron),
           6 (Expedition to Zhodane), 7 (Broadsword), 8 (Prison Planet),
           10 (Safari Ship), 11 (Murder on Arcturus Station), 13 (Signal GK)
Double Adventures 1 (Shadows/Annic Nova), 2 (Across the Bright Face/Mission on
           Mithril), 3 (Death Station/The Argon Gambit), 5 (The Chamax Plague/
           Horde), 6 (Divine Intervention/Night of Conquest)
The Stazhlekh Report/The Harrensa Project (Fasa)

15mm Ship plans:
I.S.P.M.V. Fenris (Fasa)
I.S.C.V. King Richard (Fasa)
I.S.P.M.V. Tethys (Fasa)
Starships and Spacecraft (Judges Guild) (missing some sheets)
Large set of 15 mm counters (Seeker)

My work:
Numerous ship designs, deckplans, robot designs, and characters
Many copies of various forms and charts
- --------------------
MEGATRAVELLER - not very used and in good shape.  I believe I have
a few other books around.

Basic set (box broken)
Rebellion Sourcebook
Errata sheets
- --------------------
TRAVELLER:2300 - hardly used and in excellent condition.

Traveller:2300
2300:Star Cruiser
Many copies of the forms and charts
- --------------------
CAR WARS - well used but well kept.

Car Wars rules
Armadillo Autoduel Arena
Truck Stop
Sunday Drivers
Autoduel Champions
Car Wars Compendium
Autoduel Quarterly, Vol 1 No 3, Vol 2 No 1
Uncle Alberts (number 1 - 2035 catalog)
AADA vehicle guide
AADA Road Atlas Volumes 1 (The East Coast), 2 (The West Coast)
extra counters
Lots of my own custom cars and tracks
- --------------------
OGRE - again all well kept.

Ogre rules (Steve Jackson)
Original Ogre rules (Microgame)
GEV (x2)
Battlesuit
The OGRE Book
- --------------------
GURPS - in excellent (almost new) condition, except original
basic set, which has a broken box.

Rules:
Basic boxed set (box broken)
Basic Set (3rd edition)
High Tech
Supers
Autoduel
Horseclans
Fantasy
Bestiary (x2)
Japan
Orcslayer
Humanx
Space
Magic
Swashbucklers
Horror

Adventures:
Car Warriors (Autoduel)
Zombietown USA (Horror/Autoduel)
Harkwood
The Old Stone Fort (x2) (Horror)
Unnight (Space)
Space Atlas (Space)
Conan Beyond Thunder River

Extras:
Hex sheets
Blank Maps
- --------------------
ROLEMASTER - been around for a while, but in decent shape.

Character Law
Arms Law
Claw Law
Spell Law
Campaign Law
- --------------------
MARVEL SUPERHEROES - in decent condition.

Marvel Superheroes boxed set (box broken)
Adventures  MH-1 (The Breeder Bombs), MH-2 (Time Trap), MH-SP1 (Secret Wars)
Supplements MH-AC2 (Avengers Assembled), MH-AC3 (Adventure fold-up figures)
- --------------------
STAR FRONTIERS - in decent condition.

Star Frontiers boxed set (box broken)
Knight Hawks (box broken)
Referee's screen
SF AC-1 Character sheets (x2) (some have been used)
Adventures SF1 (Volturnus, Planet of Mystery), SF2 (Starspawn of Volturnus),
           SF3 (Sundown on Starmist), SFKH1 (Dramune Run), SFKH2 (Mutiny on
           the Eleanor Moraes)
- --------------------
PARANOIA - in excellent (mostly new) condition.

Paranoia boxed set
Hill Sector Blues
DOA Sector Travellogue
Send in the Clones
Clones in Space
Excessory pack w/Gamemaster's screen
Acute Paranoia
- --------------------
MISCELLANEOUS - these are in order by condition.

New:
Universe (boxed set) (w/2 copies of Delta Vee)
Top Secret/SI boxed set
Top Secret G4 File: Guns, Gadgets, and Getaway Gear

Excellent:
Champions 4th edition
DC Heroes boxed set
Gamma World, 2nd edition boxed set

Good/Very Good:
Steve Jackson's Sorcery series (1-4 plus spell book)
Lost Worlds books Barbarian w/2-handed sword, Halfling w/sword and shield
Original Illuminati (w/expansion sets 1, 2, and 3)

Decent:
Toon, Son of Toon, and Toon Silly Stuff
Hardcover Fantasy Wargaming book
Ars Magica (binding broken) w/The Broken Covenant & Whimsy cards

Well used:
Thieves World adventure pack (boxed set)
Villians and Vigilantes boxed set (box broken)
- --------------------
MISCELLANEOUS BOARD GAMES/WAR GAMES (all boxed sets) - these
are in general in excellent shape.  Some are unused.

The Arab-Israeli Wars
Starship Troopers
Kingmaker
Onslaught
Sword Lords
Titan
Elric (Young Kingdoms Adventure Game)
Star Fleet Battles volumes 1 and 2 plus supplement 1
Mystic Wood
Freedom in the Galaxy
Wizards
Tales of the Arabian Nights
Original Dungeon
The Last Starfighter
Cosmic Encounter (West End) (box breaking)
Image (don't know condition)
Moonstar (don't know condition)
- --------------------
MAGAZINES - these are all in very good to excellent condition.

White Dwarf numbers 50, 113, 114
Challenge numbers 28, 31, 34
Space Gamer/Fanatasy Gamer number 81
Campaign number 94
White Wolf number 16
Traveller's Digest numbers 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14
- --------------------
I haven't listed any D&D (including AD&D, Spelljammer, etc.)
material - expect that in another post.  I also have a large
number of Dragon magazines and AD&D modules.

I also have a large number of miniatures in varying conditions
and lots of other games (such as microgames) which I haven't
cataloged yet.
- --------------------
If you are interested in any of these items, please contact me
by e-mail.  You can reach me by phone, but my answering machine
has been eating messages recently.  I am not making a business
out of this -- I just hope to get back some of the small fortune
that I put into these games.  Prices are negotiable, but I do
have a good idea of the going rate for many of these games.

Jerry Williams
gsw@whservd.att.com
(908)953-0551

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3527
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Skill level levels
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 92 21:38:55 MET

> Brandon Cope writes:
> >From Scott Kellogg:
>
> >Skill Levels and their meanings (In my book)
> >(Using Ground Car as an example)
> >Ground Car-0 (Know how to drive, fill the tank, when to get routine
>               maintainance, knows when car is malfunctioning.)
> >Ground Car-1 Can Drive in bad weather, diagnose of minor faults, can
>               perform minor maintainance: change oil & filters
> >Ground Car-2 Can Drive in bad weather at speed.  Perform most maintainance
> >Ground Car-3 Professional Racer.  Can overhaul engine & transmission.
> >Ground Car-4 A.J. Foyt
> >Ground Car-5 Speed Racer
> >Ground Car-6 Racer-X
>
> >(Using Hand gun)
> >Hand Gun-0   Can point the gun and shoot it.  Knows how to reload
> >Hand Gun-1   Can strip and reassemble it under battle field conditions
> >Hand Gun-2   Can strip weapon & reassemble blind folded
> >Hand Gun-3   Competition level marksman
> >Hand Gun-4   Olympic level marksman
> >(Please note, I am Ground Car-1, and Hand Gun-0.)
>
>       Same skills with me, though I probaly would have something like a
> Knowledge(firearms/20th century)-2 or 3...

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this point. I just happen
to consider a skill system that makes the second step (skill-0 =
first step, skill-1 = second step) equivalent to full army training
too coarse for my taste (Why, I even impose a negative DM on promotions
for military personel that hasn't reached skill-2 in any MOS). Still,
I can't resist the temptation to point out that medic-1 is listed
somewhere a equivalent to a nurse, medic-2 to a para-medic and not
until you reach doctor do you get to medic-3. Going by that I'd say
that Ground Car-3 should be professional driving, granted, but taxi
driver/trucker; a professional racer would need 4-5 in skill.

And I still think Traveller could use a few more differentiations
in it's skill system. You may let Wet Navy captains navigate your
starships, but I require a real astrogator for mine ;-)

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "Come all brother spacemen that travel along.
         Oh, pray come and tell me where the trade is all gone.
         Long time have I travelled, and I cannot find none."
         Ch: "And sing: All the hard times of the Empire.
              In the Empire are very hard times."
                                Traditional song.

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3528
From: traveller@metolius.WR.TEK.COM (Traveller Mailing List)
Subject: TML msg 3528 irretrievably lost
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 92 21:38:55 MET

THis message was lost and could not be found.

James

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3529
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re: TL Loss & Trade
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 92 15:32:21 MET

> From: surman@vortex.lgs.lsu.edu (Michael A. Surman)
> Subject: (3522) TL Loss & Trade
> 
> My question is this: How does a planet maintain the loss of its tech
> level? If a planet went from TL 12 to TL 9 it wouldn't take long to
> get back to 12. It may take awhile to spread over the entire planet
> but it would occur. And it would occur much more quickly than the 
> first time since the knowledge is still there. 

  The answer according to Hard Times is apparently that the Imperium was
just a big version of the Soviet Union where one planet made TL15 left shoes,
coathangers, and eggspoons and nothing else.
 
  Then Hard Times strike and all that they have left when the trade stopped
coming is a huge surplus of left shoes, coathangers, and eggspoons bursting 
out of the warehouses to drown everyone and inflict irreparable ecologic
damage as all the polished eggspoons reflect sunlight, increasing the albedo
of the planet and making its temperature drop.

  No, I'm not drunk, there is an almost as silly example in Hard Times on
page 49.

- -bertil-
- -- 
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3530
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re: 3G <-> Traveller
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 92 16:26:44 MET

> From: cs161fbg@sdcc10.UCSD.EDU (Jack Dietz)
> Subject: (3517) 3G <-> Traveller
> 
> Has anyone prepared a list of the modifications necessary for weapons
> designed with 3G to be used with Traveller?
 
  If we are talking about MegaTraveller, there were an article in Challenge #40
by Greg Porter, but some parts of his manuscript had been cut by the editors.
A full(er?) version can be found among the conversion essays at the end of 3G^3
(3G third edition).

  Note that his conversion was made to yield results similar to MegaTraveller
weapons already given in Players and Encyclopedia, a conversion method which
I don't agree with philosophically.

  I support the method of converting through the common physical bases if 
such a critter exists: A weapon that can penetrate 40mm of armor quality 
steel in 3G should be able to penetrate 40mm of hard steel in MegaTraveller
regardless of how far out the weapons given in the manuals are.
  
  This leads to a slightly (to use an understatement) different conversion
of DV to Pen. I posted it and a series of remade designs (cut off halfway,
unfortunately) to the TML about half a year ago. I don't know which bundle
they ended up in.

> Jack Dietz.
 
- -bertil-
- -- 
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3531
From: richard@agora.rain.COM (Richard Johnson)
Subject: Rebirth of Empire
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 92 9:25:58 EST

I was getting all set to lauch a tirade against loss of TL
because of "Hard Times" (HT), but Michael Surman beat me to
the punch.  I'd like to add a few more things, though.

A planet is, with some exceptions, a self-sustaining ecosystem.
It gets energy from its sun, and resources from itself.  The people
(sophonts, if you will) provide creative input upon these raw
materials and produce.  If a planet is capable of sustaining life,
then surely creative life will sustain itself there.

If the citizens have traditionally relied on outside demand and
assistance for technology, then being stranded will, in a VERY
short time, give rise to some wholly new, creative, innovative
technology that will quickly surpass the original.  (Look at 
Earth's history for examples.)  It might seem bad for a few years,
but in just a few short years, Hard times bring forth a new,
stronger, more vital culture.  

Out of these cultures will come the new empire.  It will panic
the established empire, they will come to blows, and the new culture
will dominate.  (examples, Babylonia, Greece, Rome, U.S. etc.)
Maybe the extant empire is destroying planets with promise?
- -- 
Richard Johnson     richard@agora.rain.com
"We've learned a great deal about how to keep the American people
pacified."   Ex-CIA director William Colby after the Church hearings

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3532
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1992 15:03 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: Space Planes and TL 6 Vac Suits

I just got Hard Times yesterday and have a few things to say.

As you might guess, the first thing I looked at was the new craft & the
construction stuff.

Question:  What use is a TL 4 resistojet when you
can't build a spacecraft power plant (batteries) till TL 5?

Did anyone even LOOK at the 'Little Renegade' TL 8 spaceplane before they
published it?  Take a good look!  Ok, Disp=20, that's a the size of a 4.5
ton aircraft with the wings unfolded.  Or the size of a 13.5 ton aircraft
with them folded.  Ok, this thing is about the size of an A-4 Skyhawk, or
a MiG-21.  Right?

Look at the weight.  Loaded=484 tons.  Ok, this thing weighs more than
twice the weight of FULLY LOADED B-52, and has wings the size of a Skyhawk!??
Ok, think about it this way.  The Space Shuttle, fully loaded weighs
about 80 tons.  This thing weighs 6 times that and could fit in the shuttle
bay!

This thing is supposed to FLY?  For one thing it is going to have the glide
angle of a crowbar, and a stall speed in the super sonic range.  To land this
beast you'd have to be flying at an absolutely horrendous rate of knots!
The Space Shuttle (the real one) requires a HUGE runway.  Why do you think
they land in the salt flats.  This design is going to require a runway of
much larger proportions.  It's a flying prostitute!  No visible means of
support!

Ok, in the adventure, they want you to land this thing on a planet that has
NO starport.  Not even a spaceport?  FORGET IT!  You would be dead. Dead. DEAD.

(It looks suspiciously like a design Rob Dean put up a LONG time ago, and it
was the ONLY design he's come up with where I said it will NOT work.)

Rob, was this one of your designs?

One other thing I noticed in here was the TL 6 vac suits.
They say they are related to TL 6 flight suits.  Presumably they are thinking
of the Mercury Project space suits.  Well, I once had the chance to buy an
old Mercury Project suit, (one of the ones used in training acutally) and did
a little research on that particular suit.  The Navy GS-1 (I think it was)
was NOT a good suit for dextrous operation.  (To put it mildly)  Oh, it was
just fine to walk around in and use when you're at atmospheric pressure, but
when pressurized, it becomes almost totally rigid.  Wearing one in vacuuum
would basically paralyze the wearer completely.  The problem is you are
wearing a huge man shaped rubber balloon.  There was no way to articulate the
joints against the pressure of the suit.

At 3PSI internal pressure, the amount of force required for the wearer to
touch his shoulder was the equivalent of bending a steel bar!
Dexterity -2 my eye!  All tasks while wearing the suit would be basically
impossible.  If the Mercury capsule had lost pressure, the capsule would have
had to be brought down by ground control COMPLETELY.  It would have basically
been impossible for the pilot to do ANYTHING.

Presumably the TL 5, and lower suits would have similar difficulties.

Scott Kellogg

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3533
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 92 00:42:28 -0500
From: lyle@ecn.purdue.edu (Lyle Youngblood)


- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Reply to WILDSTAR's economic stats post     

The table below shows the major categories of Imperial expenditures, and the
amounts spent on them.  Note that the Imperial family recieves its income
in the form of dividends paid to the Throne (the Imperial family holds
shares in a number of megacorporations, and many lesser companies).  The
Imperial bureaucracy is supported by user fees (application, liscencing,
processing, and other fees paid for official services rendered).  Some
of these services actually produce a profit; others are subsidized by
the Imperium (for example, the XBoat network operates at a loss, but it is
subsidized through the IISS budget).  Much of these funds fall into the
"Other Expenditures" category.  The "Naval Estimates" and "Army Estimates" 
are, for historical reasons, the terms for the Navy and Army budgets.

Category           Percent   Budget (MCr)
- - -----------------------------------------
Naval Estimates      51.20  1,123,711,789
Army Estimates       16.05    352,257,309
Scout Service        21.31    467,701,137
Other Expenditures   11.44    251,079,352
- - ----------------------------------------- 
ALL                 100.00  2,194,749,587

- ----Minor quibble.  Doesn't the Imperium subsidize most of the starports
- ----within its boundries? This and the fact that I seriously doubt any
- ----bureaucracy the size of the Imperiums is going to operate at profit
- ----on any but the most local of levels leads me to blelieve that the
- ----Scout and Other categories should be a little higher.  Also, I expect
- ----that the Marines are a sufficiently independent organization to require
- ----a separate "Estimate".


These figures can be used to estimate the approximate volume of shipping
within the Imperium.  A 10,000 displacement ton hull will be used as an
"average" to estimate construction times.  A hull occupies its tonnage
in the shipyard for its entire construction time of 160 weeks.  Ships
must also undergo annual maintainance; 2 weeks every year.  The yards of
the Imperium have an annual capacity of 265,130,980,000 ton-weeks of new 
construction or maintainance, and an additional 227,086,570,000 ton-weeks 
of maintainance only.  Presumably, the Naval Bases, Naval Depots, Scout 
Bases, and Scout Waystations contain additional ship construction and repair 
facilities to build and maintain ships for the Imperial military services 
(this is a logical extension of the policy that a world's survey data does 
not include the personnel or technology of any military bases present).

- ----Unfortunately your assumption about Naval Bases, Depots, etc., is 
- ----probably incorrect.  There have been numerous mentions of civilian
- ----companies and mega-corps building ships for the Imperial Navy going
- ----all the way back to Adventure 1: The Kinnunnir, which class was, if
- ----I recall correctly, built by General Products at Regina and LSP at
- ----Strouden/Lunion.  I expect the Imperium still builds naval and scout
- ----vessels the same way we do today; by letting contracts to civilian
- ----firms.
In peacetime, shipyards and ships presumably exist in an equilibrum: the
number of new ships constructed is the same as the number retired from
service; and all ships in service can recieve their annual maintainance.
In practice, there is always some spare shipyard capacity to provide for
regional differences, trade expansion, and so on.  Let us assume this
spare capacity at 10%.  The active lifetime of a ship must be at least as
long, and probably longer than, the period over which it is financed, 40 
years.  There is good reason (analysis of the Azhanti High Lightning
class cruisers, the only class of ships for which complete records are
available) to believe that the active life can be more than 100 years.
Let us assume that it is 80 years (exactly twice the pay-off time).

- ----No problem. If anything, your estimate might be low. However, I will have
- ----to argue with your unstated assumption that yards will operate at
- ----90% of max rate during peacetime. My understanding is that modern-day
- ----yards run at between 10-50% of max. possible.  Some of the reasons
- ----for this, i.e. the fact that ship construction is often seasonable
- ----and not done during the winter months, like construction, can be
- ----assumed to no longer apply, but the major one still will.  During
- ----peacetime most yards will only run one, or at most two, work shifts.
- ----During war, or other peak production periods, three shifts will be
- ----run, overtime will be paid, etc.  I would expect Imperial shipyards
- ----to operate at 25-50% of effectiveness.

                           Lyle (who won't be buying Neo-Traveller)



------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3534
Date: 23 Jan 92 04:53:36 EST
From: Leonard Erickson <70465.203@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Re: (3532) Space Planes and TL 6 Vac Suits

Scott Kellogg writes:
>Did anyone even LOOK at the 'Little Renegade' TL 8 spaceplane before
>they published it?  Take a good look!  Ok, Disp=20, that's a the size
>of a 4.5 ton aircraft with the wings unfolded.  Or the size of a 13.5
>ton aircraft with them folded.  Ok, this thing is about the size of an
>A-4 Skyhawk, or a MiG-21.  Right?

>Look at the weight.  Loaded=484 tons.  Ok, this thing weighs more than
>twice the weight of FULLY LOADED B-52, and has wings the size of a
>Skyhawk!??

Doesn't a Disp of 20 mean 20 cubic meters? (My books are buried)
If so, this puppy has a density of 484e6 grams/20e6 cc. Which works out
to 24.2 g/cc. This is *noticeacbly* denser than platinum, and in fact
denser than *any* know substance. (excluding things like "degenerate
materr, and neutronium).

So, it fails a class *Zero* reality check. 


>One other thing I noticed in here was the TL 6 vac suits.
>They say they are related to TL 6 flight suits.  Presumably they are
>thinking of the Mercury Project space suits.  Well, I once had the
>chance to buy an old Mercury Project suit, (one of the ones used in
>training acutally) and did a little research on that particular suit. 
>The Navy GS-1 (I think it was) was NOT a good suit for dextrous
>operation.  (To put it mildly)  Oh, it was just fine to walk around in
>and use when you're at atmospheric pressure, but when pressurized, it
>becomes almost totally rigid.  Wearing one in vacuuum would basically
>paralyze the wearer completely.  The problem is you are wearing a huge
>man shaped rubber balloon.  There was no way to articulate the joints
>against the pressure of the suit.

>At 3PSI internal pressure, the amount of force required for the wearer
>to touch his shoulder was the equivalent of bending a steel bar!

Well, in the 50's there was work on a *much* more flexible suit. It even
had a few tests in a vacuum chamber (with a person wearing it) before it
was cancelled. It was the basis for the "skinsuit" seenm in many SF
stories. We *could* have built it, we chose not too. 



------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3535
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re: Rebirth of Empire
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 92 14:40:02 MET

> From: richard@agora.rain.COM (Richard Johnson)
> Subject: (3531) Rebirth of Empire
> 
> A planet is, with some exceptions, a self-sustaining ecosystem.
> It gets energy from its sun, and resources from itself.

  This is obviously true when we are talking about Low Tech planets who has yet
to organize relatively cheap intra-system spacetravel, but I doubt that
*any* HighTech planet with a substancial population can survive on its own
for more than a few years without drawing upon the (in the most cases 
extremely large) resources of their system.

- -bertil-
- -- 
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3536
Date:    Thu, 23 Jan 1992 8:42:46 -0600 (CST)
From: A_COPEAB@CCSVAX.SFASU.EDU (Brandon Cope)
Subject: skill levels revisited

Hmm, perhaps I should have looked over the skill levels a bit more closely
before I commented. I will say that I still stand with a 5+ being a Master
in that skill, and at least a 2 in a skill is needed to seriously expect to
make a good living at a job using it.

Revised Skill Description (weapons):
level-0: you know how to hold and swing/fire the weapon, as well as loading it
level-1: as above, but you can do basic maintainance on the weapon (typical
	skill level for non-military types)
level-2: you are good enough to compete in contests, and can field strip your
	weapon under difficult situations; minimum level for a (good)
	bodyguard or mercenary
level-3: you are very good with your weapon; you have a skill that is expected
	as minimal for elite forces
level-4: you are an expert in your weapon; you can do major repairs, and
	if having mechanical and/or electronic skill (depending on the
	weapon type), you can do some customizing of the weapon on your
	own
level-5+: you are a master in the weapon; you can do major repairs and can
	design weapons in the class similar to your own, and can do major
	customizing if you have other skills appropriate to the job at hand.


The same general ideas can be used for other skills, where level-0 =
familiarity and level-5 = mastery. 

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3537
From: gsw@whservd.att.COM
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 92 10:05 EST
Subject: Re: GAMES FOR SALE

When I posted the game sale, I expected a good response, but not as
overwhelming as I got.  What's surprising to me is the large number of
people asking for "all of X".  I expected people to mostly be completing
collections, not starting them.

I was trying to keep up responding, but work is preventing that.  Please
be patient.  I'll try to catch up this weekend.  Perhaps I'll get a
chance to post the other half of my RPG stuff.  Meanwhile continue
sending in your inquiries.

gsw

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3538
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1992 14:28:58 -0500
From: Stuart Willard Daniel <stuartd@huron.eecs.umich.edu>
Subject: AntiMatter Fuel Availability


I've been toying with a design for a ship using an experimental
TL17 antimatter power plant, and I was wondering about just how
such a ship would go about getting refueled. Essentially, I would
just like to get people's opinions on how easy it would be to either
make or obtain the "fuel pods" necessary for such a power plant.

On a related note, does anyone consider the TL17-21 jump drives to
be using antimatter fuel? Their fuel requirements do not drop as
drastically as those for the power plants ( at least at TL17).

Thanks!

stuartd

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3539
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1992 15:15 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: Re: Skill level interpretation

Hans Rancke said:
"I'd say that Ground Car-3 should be professional driving, granted, but
taxi driver/trucker; a professional racer would need 4-5 in skill."

Well, they must have better taxi drivers in Copenhagen than around here! :-)

But I do agree about Wet Navy navigation vs. Astronavigation.  Fortunately
I never have had to deal with the problem of a Wet Navy navigator character.
Usually the Wet Navy characters are NPCs.

You may be right about rifle-1 though.  I have kinda based my idea of Rifle-1
and initial military training on the movie 'Full Metal Jacket' (as I have no
experience of military training.)  But, one thing I would point out is that
US Marine forces are considered Elite Forces.  In a wargames I have seen, US
military forces (and NATO in general) get bonuses for superior training.
Perhaps then US Marines would get Rifle-2 as their initial training skill.

Perhaps this should be extended to the IMP Marines as they seem to be based on
the US Marines.

Hey!  Mark Cook!  If I remember right, you were a Marine.  Would you give us
your opinion on this?

Scott Kellogg

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3540
Subject: Re: TML nightly: Msgs 3459-3459 V31#18
From: bmb@bluemoon.rn.COM (Bryan Bankhead)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 92 19:41:38 EST

iuvax!metolius.wr.tek.com!traveller-request writes:
> TML nightly	Mon Jan 13 20:32:40 PST 1992	Volume 31 : Issue 18
> 

> One last thing I would like to see in Traveller 3.  Some rules for the
> construction of micro-electronics.  As is, it is impossible to build
> any really small neato devices.
> 
> It is impossible to build a robot that is under 1 liter in displacement.
> (whataDRAG!)  Now the only way to get something neat and small is to have
> the ref just guess how much it would cost.  Some official guidelines
> would really help a LOT!
> 
> Even if it is just a basic rule.
> Like:  For every time the devices volume is divided by 2, the cost is
> multiplied by 4.
> 
> Thus a device that originally takes up 8 liters and cost 1000 cr
> would cost:
> 4000Cr if built at 4 liters,
> 16000Cr if built at 2 liters
> etc. etc.
> 
> What do you guys think?
> 
> Scott Kellogg

I Had a similar problem creating fuel cell stats for a powered armor 
design system. I needed fuel cells much small than those listed in the 
rules.  I solve it by putting the existing stats into a linear regression 
utility and then deriving an equation for the values.

 This is from
     bmb@bluemoon.rn.com
who doesn't have their own obnoxious signature yet

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3541
From: metolius.WR.TEK.COM!uunet!imd.sterling.com!Chris_Olson@sequent.UUCP (Chris Olson)
Subject: Is there an archive for this mailing list?
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 92 20:49:56 CST

[This was originally sent to the TML's old address.  Please use
traveller@metolius.wr.tek.com now -- James]

Sorry to waste bandwidth, but I'd like to see what others have done in the
way of traveller in the past.  Is there an archive site out there I could
ftp to?

ATdhvaannkcse (Thanks in Advance :-)
- -- 
    ____/    /           __/            chris@IMD.Sterling.COM
   /        __  /   __/   /    ___/
  /        /   /   /     /  ___  /      "It's intuitively obvious to the most
______/ __/ __/ __/   __/ ______/        casual observer..."

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3542
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: GOTHCON XVI
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 92 14:33:44 MET

				GOTHCON
				  XVI

   The 1992 GOTHCON game convention will take place the 17th to 19th of April 
on Munkeba"ckksgymnasiet, Ernst Torulfsgatan 1, Gothenburg. This is the same 
location as last year, and maps will be included in the reply to the 
registration.
   GOTHCON is the biggest and oldest game convention in Scandinavia, and we'd 
like to think we are the best too:)

   GOTHCON XVI Events include:

   RPG Tournaments:
      Advanced Dungeons and Dragons	MegaTraveller
      Call of Cthulhu			MERP
      Cyberpunk				RuneQuest III
      Drakar och Demoner		Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying
      KULT

Addenda for the TML:
  The MegaTraveller adventure this year is written by Robert Danielsson and
Go"ran Svensson. The "short text" about it in the GOTHCON program is 
unfortunately too long for me to type in but it is about the crew of a 
scoutship that is forced to flee Efate head over heels due to a mishap
involving a game of cards.

   Boardgame Tournaments:
      Advanced Squad Leader		Illuminati
      Britannia				Junta
      Car Wars				Kremlin
      Civilization			Republic of Rome
      Diplomacy				Warhammer 40k

   Independent Game Events:
      Ars Magica			Quatre Bras
      Blood & Mud			Ruinworld
      Bloodbowl				Sjo"strid
      Bonnie Blue			Space 1889
      Chivalry				Space Marine 2nd ed.
      Hunter Planet			Svarta Korpen
      Micro				O"stfronten

   GOTHCON XVI will also feature:
      Art and Miniature competitions	A games auction and
      Several dealers' rooms		FRP Artists


   Preregistration is 120 Swedish Kronor ($20) (100 SKr for SVEROK members),
plus additional fees for individual tournaments.
   No preregistrations after February 29.
   Non-preregistered guests are welcome, but the entrance fee at the door is 
150 SKr ($25) for the whole convention or 60 SKr ($10) for one day, plus the
torunament fees, of course.

   Write to:
      Surface Mail: GOTHCON XVI
                    c/o Bertil Jonell
                    P.O.Box 154
                    S-43900 Onsala
                    SWEDEN

      Email: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se

   Call: +46 300-61004

   Alternate:
      Snail Mail: GOTHCON XVI
                  c/o Mikael Palo
                  Januarigatan 35
                  S-41515 Go"teborg
                  SWEDEN
      Phone: +46 31-464786 (+46 31-198310 Sundays 1 PM to 9 PM Middle European 
Time)

   GOTHCON XVI organizers are the Bifrost, Chaos Apes and Ygdrasil Gaming 
Organizations. To avoid being the target of harsh language from persons 
responsible for economics and legalities, I'll have to mention that GOTHCON is 
a trademark of Fo"reningen GOTHCON.

- -bertil-
- -- 
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3543
Subject: Re: Is there an archive for this mailing list? 
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 92 13:30:38 PST
From: James T Perkins <jamesp@metolius.WR>


Chris Olson writes:
> Sorry to waste bandwidth, but I'd like to see what others have done in the
> way of traveller in the past.  Is there an archive site out there I could
> ftp to?

Yes, several.  Try sunbane first.  Here's its anonymous ftp stats:

	Name: sunbane.engrg.uwo.ca
	Addr: 129.100.100.12
	Dir:  pub/traveller
	Mgr:  dan@engrg.uwo.ca (Dan Corrin)

Sunbane contains the TML archive traffic, sector data, vheicle designs, etc.

James

__   __/         /   /	    Internet Traveller Mailing List, Administrator
    /     /  /  /   /	   James T. Perkins in Beaverton, Oregon, USA
 __/   __/__/__/ _____/   traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3544
Subject: GEnie Traveller Round Table Discussion
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 92 13:56:42 PST
From: James T Perkins <jamesp@metolius.WR>


Well, has it happened yet?  If not, when?  If it has, how about someone
posting a copy of it?

Thanks to Steve Fellows for these suggestions

James

__   __/         /   /	    Internet Traveller Mailing List, Administrator
    /     /  /  /   /	   James T. Perkins in Beaverton, Oregon, USA
 __/   __/__/__/ _____/   traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3545
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1992 17:41 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: Inflatable Battle Dress?

Ok, how about this for a wierd idea...

You climb into your battle dress suit (combat armor etc).  Nudge the power
switch with your chin, and BooooooOOOP!

The interior padding inflates, conforming to the size and shape of your
body!

Ok, so you still probably couldn't have radically different size persons
wear the same suit, (Arnold Shwartzeneger vs. Danny Divito), but people of
ROUGHLY the same size and weight could probably manage.

Sowhadathink?

Scott Kellogg
"Dragonflies and Katydids but mostly chewed up little kids."  -Hobbes

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3546
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1992 20:27:11 -0500 (EST)
From: William Dow Rieder <wr0k+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Hard Times/ Fusion rockets

Greetings all -
	I finally got a chance to read Hard Times, and was pleasantly
surprised - Finally, a GDW book written by someone who
UNDERSTANDS ECONOMICS!  There is now no need for the much
loathed killer computer virus.  Hard Times correctly zeros in on the
disruption of trade, and the resultant collapse of most of the finance
industries as the cause for the TL drops being more than temporary.
	Sure, the knowledge exists - but someone has to pay for the
new plants, new tools, etc for the planet to become self-sufficient at
its OLD TL - which it never was before.  In most places people are
devoting most of their resources to survival, and they can't borrow
from anyone else now.

	As for the low tech space stuff, I suppose it was too much to expect
the writer to know enough physics to correct the gross error in the fuel
consumption for the Fusion Rocket - copied from COACC (bleah).
	I believe that a while back someone wanted some reasonable
values for said rocket, and I have worked them out.  For the standard
Fusion Rocket, fuel = ~3.3 kl/hour of LH2, or ~0.75 kl/hour of water
(using the oxygen as extra reaction mass).  This is based on 1% of the mass
of the hydrogen being converted to energy, and the fusion products are used
as reaction mass.
				Capt. Kagarillian Grant
		Alias:

					W. Dow Rieder

 	When the only tool you have is a hammer, all your problems
start to look like nails...

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3547
Date:    Fri, 24 Jan 92 09:04 EST
From: "Carl Fago" <CDF1@PSUVM.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEnie Roundtable Discussion

So far as I've seen, there has been no mention of a roundtable discussion
for quite some time.  My guess is that it is one of GDW's lowest priority
items.

 *-=Carl=-*  INTERNET - cdf1@psuvm.psu.edu    | Be wary of strong drink.     |
             DELPHI - WULFGAR  GEnie - C.FAGO1| It can make you shoot at tax |
 Carl Fago   State College, PA                | collectors -- and miss!      |


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3548
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1992 10:30 EST
From: "Doc Kinne: User Services Associate" <KINNERC%snymorva.bitnet@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Killer Computer Virus????

Greetings Folks:  1523UTC 9201.24

>From William Dow Rieder, 9201.24 01:27:11UTC
>Greetings all -
>       I finally got a chance to read Hard Times, and was pleasantly
>surprised - Finally, a GDW book written by someone who
>UNDERSTANDS ECONOMICS!  There is now no need for the much
>loathed killer computer virus.

        I've not had a chance to even SEE Hard Times as of yet.  With
the way things have been I haven't had time to even get to a game shop
since I subscribed to the mail list about a month ago.  This, however,
is the second reference I've seen made to a "killer computer virus" in
present Traveller or, perhaps, Traveller: The Next Empire.  Could some
kind soul please fill me in on the details of what GDW is doing/is planning
on doing with this "much loathed killer computer virus?"
        Thanks much...
- --
AT&T: (315)684-6161 (W)              Richard C. F. "Doc" Kinne, N2IKR
Compuserve: 70721,636                User Services Associate
InterNet: kinnerc@snymorva.BITNET    Academic Computing Center
PBBS: N2IKR@N2KQN.#WNY.NY.USA.NA     SUNY Morrisville
                                     Morrisville, NY  13408
Quote: "Death is that state where one exists only in the memory of others,
        so it is not an ending.  No goodbyes, just good memories.
        Hailing frequencies closed, sir."
                                        -Lt. Natasha Yar
                        _Skin of Evil_, Star Trek: The Next Generation
Gene Roddenberry: 1921-1991.  Rest in Peace, Great Bird.

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3549
Date:    Fri, 24 Jan 1992 9:48:46 -0600 (CST)
From: A_COPEAB@CCSVAX.SFASU.EDU (Brandon Cope)
Subject: too-heavy ships, battle dress, other junk

(1) a displacement of 20 tons is about 270 cubic meters (13.5 cubic meters
per ton). This would drop the density you figured by over 90% (about 1.79
g/cc i think...). I don't remember the periodic table well enough to know what
this corresponds to (if someone wants to check my math, please feel free...).

(2) well, at least in the discussion of battle dress, we haven't gotten into
nanotechnology (right now on GMAST-L, we are discussing (very) high-tech
combat armor, and the prevailing opinion seems to be for nanotechnology,
which allows the suit to reconfigure into whatever patterns are stored in 
its computer's memory). This would certianly make for battle dress that
would fit just about anyone, but is pretty far out there...

(3) there should be a difference between Astrogation and Navigation;
this is not an unnecessary skill split.

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
*****************

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        anthony@cs.pitt.edu (Michael Anthony Kapolka),
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Subject: TML Bundle #288: Msgs 3550-3564
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Status: R


TML Bundles come from the archives of the Traveller Mailing List,
maintained by James Perkins, traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed Jan 29 21:00:26 PST 1992
From: traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com (TML Administrator)
Subject: TML Bundle #288: Table of Contents

-AMN- --Date--- --Sender--------- --Subject-----------------------------------
3550  24-Jan-92 Robert S. Dean    Re: (3534) Re: (3532) Space Planes and TL 6 V
3551  24-Jan-92 Robert S. Dean    Re: (3544) GEnie Traveller Round Table Discus
3552  24-Jan-92 Robert S. Dean    Trade and Tech Level << There is one thing ab
3553  24-Jan-92 Steve_Higginbotha rockets of all kinds << I notice that Dow Rei
3554  24-Jan-92 Steve_Higginbotha Hard Times and TL loss... << I have noticed a
3555  24-Jan-92 KELLOGG@ducvax.au Re: TL 8 Spaceplane & Vac Suits << Leonard Er
3556  24-Jan-92 Steve_Higginbotha Hard Times addendum << I won't even talk abou
3557  24-Jan-92 SULAIMAN@ecs.umas Battle Rider squadron << CRAFT ID: Ghauri Cla
3558  24-Jan-92 Timothy Soholt    Re: Antimatter Fuel Availability << I'd think
3559  25-Jan-92 William Henry Tim Re: (3553) rockets of all kinds << For someon
3560  25-Jan-92                    << Bitnet> To: traveller@metolius.wr.tek.com
3561  25-Jan-92                   Genie Roundtable << I suspect you will not he
3562  26-Jan-92 Leonard Erickson  skinsuit, specfic impulse << Ok, I goofed! (H
3563  26-Jan-92 d9bertil@dtek.cha VLSI and Mideval Pigeons << Somebody said (I 
3564  26-Jan-92 Steve_Higginbotha rebuttal to the rebuttal << >From: William He

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3550
Date:     Fri, 24 Jan 92 10:44:17 EST
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Re:  (3534) Re: (3532) Space Planes and TL 6 Vac Suits

> Leonard Erickson <70465.203@CompuServe.COM> writes:
> 
> Doesn't a Disp of 20 mean 20 cubic meters? (My books are buried)
> If so, this puppy has a density of 484e6 grams/20e6 cc. Which works out
> to 24.2 g/cc. This is *noticeacbly* denser than platinum, and in fact
> denser than *any* know substance. (excluding things like "degenerate
> materr, and neutronium).
> 
> So, it fails a class *Zero* reality check. 

Actually 1 displacement = 13.5 cubic meters, giving it a density of 24.2/13.5=
1.8 g/cc, which is better.  I might take this opportunity to point out that
fissionable fuel, according to the Referee's Manual, has a density of 25 g/cc,
which _is_ a problem as you note above.  Collapsium shielding on the fuel
rods, anyone?

Scott's original point, that a spaceplane designed using the the One Small Step
rules and meeting the minimum hull armor 40 requirement is going to be too
heavy to fly is quite true.

Scott wasn't a regular on the TML when the discussion over this point was going
on last year.  It was agreed by all the space science types on the list that
armor 40 was a good approximation of the real hull thickness that would be
required for long term radiation protection for a spacecraft crew (something to
do with cosmic ray cascades, as I recall.)  I suggest that anyone seriously
concerned about the matter adopt one of the following solutions:

Design the spaceplane strictly using COACC.
Design the spaceplane using COACC with an additional cost factor for a
     re-entry capable hull.  (Something like *5...)
Design the spaceplane using the Ref's Manual/One Small Step system, but allow
     an armor minimum of something smaller, like 8.

Since the craft is designed for landing and takeoff, not for deepspace ops, the
lower radiation resistance should be acceptable.  There are no rules for this,
apart from something in one of the later Traveller's Digests--it's just one of 
those little bits of reality based explanation that you can toss at the players
if they ask questions, which they probably won't.

Somewhere in the archives, you can find Scott's Orion spaceplane (an example of
the first scheme) and my TL8 10 ton ship's boat (an example of the third).

In the event that combat occurred involving a craft with an armor value of less
than 40, I'd just use a +1 per 3 armor levels short damage modifier on the
combat tables.  So, a ship with an armor value of 10 (30 below 40) would be
subject to a DM of +10 on the damage tables.  Critical hits, interior 
penetrations and the like would be almost guaranteed.

Rob Dean


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3551
Date:     Fri, 24 Jan 92 10:51:55 EST
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Re:  (3544) GEnie Traveller Round Table Discussion

Our Glorious Leader writes:
>
> Subject: (3544) GEnie Traveller Round Table Discussion
> 
> Well, has it happened yet?  If not, when?  If it has, how about someone
> posting a copy of it?
> 
> James

It hasn't happened yet.  In fact, it hasn't even been scheduled yet.  For all
practical purposes, discussion of the revision over there is quite dead at
the moment.  I'll try to ensure that arrangements are made to get a transcript
over here when (if) it happens.

Rob Dean


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3552
Date:     Fri, 24 Jan 92 11:18:53 EST
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Trade and Tech Level

There is one thing about the current trade and tech level discussion that
bothers me.  Wouldn't it make sense for any planetary navy anywhere close
to a TL15 world to import Model 9 computers?  The computer modifier, showing
up as it does in both the hit and penetration sections of the combat 
resolution, is probably the most critical factor in ship combat.  A fleet
with TL12 weapons and ships could seriously threaten a TL15 fleet if they
didn't have the computer differential to worry about.  What effects does
this have on the game--if allowed, and if disallowed?

Rob Dean


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3553
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 92 09:44:24 CST
From: Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US (Steve Higginbotham)
Subject: rockets of all kinds

I notice that Dow Reider is bitching about the "fusion rocket" in MT. 
Admittedly, he has excellent reasons to bitch.  However, I notice that
noone has bothered to say anything rude about the OTHER rocket types
presented in Hard Times and COACC.
Herein are my own complaints:

    1)  Basic and advanced rocket - specific impulse 16000+ each.  The SSME
has a specific impulse of 459 (last I heard).

    2)  The Nuclear thermal rocket (NERVA, I presume?) - specific impulse
is 550,000+.   The NERVA we built a few decades ago was tested on the
ground at a specific impulse of 780-odd.  It was expected to reach 800+ in
actual operation.  The most wildly optimistic extrapolations of the NERVA
produced specific impulse in the range of 10,000 at most, if certain
insurmountable problems could be overcome by future materials technology.

    3)  he "resistojet" - specific impulse 1.8 (salute!).  Admittedly, this
is a steam rocket out of a boiler, but REAL steam engines produce steam
with specific impulse much higher than that, by a factor of 10 to 100,
depending on steam pressure.

    4)  Likewise the mass driver rocket.  specific impulse 100.  Real  ones
were cobbled together in labs with ten times the specific impulse.  There
was not found to be any real difficulty making them ten times better still.

    5)  The ion rocket - It is hard to argue with a system so open-ended as
an ion rocket, but I will anyway.  specific impulse 1,200,000.  Most
real-world design work has produced ion drives with specific impulse less
than 50,000.  There is no good reason that an ion drive could not have ANY
specific impulse less than light speed.  It's just inefficient to do so. 
MY big quibble is the power required.  Their ion drive SHOULD use at least
2.88+ Gw per unit.  It uses 500 Kw per unit.  MIRACULOUS PERFORMANCE!  The
mind boggles...

    6)  The solid rocket - specific impulse 3000.  Real world examples
seldom reach 300.

    7)  The others - mostly have been bitched at by other experts.  My 2
cents worth would be wasted.

    8)  The LALV (Lift-Assisted Launch Vehicle).  What a concept!  A NASP
(National Aero-Space Plane) that uses more fuel than an equivelant-sized
rocket.  The LALV uses FAR more fuel than a straght rocket, and requires
more engine weight and less payload.  SO WHAT'S THE POINT???  Why build a
device that doesn't work as well as the nearest alternative?

    And 9)  The notion (used in Hard Times_[}, and on Rob Dean's recent TL8
rocket posted here) that any sane man would put battleship armor plate on a
rocket of any kind.  factor 40 armor is equivelant to over 13" of steel
(33.6 cm to all of us who use SI as a way of life).  Putting that kind of
armor on a rocket is less reasonable than doing it on your automobile.  A
more realistic figure would be armor 8 (or perhaps 4).  Then the
performance of your machine would be higher, and the cost would be lower.

Later...

- -- Via DLG Pro v0.985b

Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US

I have learned to use the word "impossible" with the greatest caution.
                                    --W. von Braun

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3554
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 92 09:56:15 CST
From: Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US (Steve Higginbotham)
Subject: Hard Times and TL loss...

I have noticed a tendency to assume that Hard Times is a reasonable picture
of the technological collapse of the Imperium.  Herein is a dissenting
point of view.

The basic assumption about Hard Times TL loss is that the worlds are trying
to become self-sufficient by dropping back 5 TLs and punting.

Why should this be so?  Admittedly, these worlds could not build all of the
High-Tech wonders required before Hard Times.  So why does it then follow
that they would spend lots of money building industries to produce archaic
equipment?  If you need to spendd the money on new industries anyway, why
not build industries producing modern stuff?
I mean, we're TL8, right?  If we suffered a major economic loss (up to but
excluding a high level nuclear exchange), it would be EXTREMELY unlikely
that we would stop building automobiles and start building horse-carts. 
The need would not be there unless 99+% of our auto industry were blasted
into the stratosphere.  Even then, it would be EASIER to reconstruct to
build something we are familiar with, rather than something we've never
done before.
In Hard Times, it is possible for a TL15 world to lose grav technology. 
Grav is a 10,000 year old technology.  It would be like us losing the
ability to build a WHEEL!  It is also unreasonable to suppose that, after
losing grav, the world would build a factory to produce items that noone
has seen for 10,000 years (wheeled vehicles, that is).  As long as you
gotta build a factory, build a TL15 grav vehicle plant.  It's going to cost
gobs of money either way, but this way you get something GOOD for the
money.
Later...

- -- Via DLG Pro v0.985b

Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US

I have learned to use the word "impossible" with the greatest caution.
                                    --W. von Braun

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3555
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1992 13:03 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: Re: TL 8 Spaceplane & Vac Suits

Leonard Erickson writes about the density of the TL 8 space plane.

Acutually, Leonard, you forgot a factor of 13.5 in there.  The Disp=20
referrs to displacement tons which are 13.5 Kl (don't ask me why, liquid
Hydrogen is approx 14Kl per ton)  Thus the volume of the beast is 270
cubic meters.  The average density of this monster is 1.79 Kg per liter.

Just a Hair less than twice the density of water.

As Richard Johnson said:  'With a stall speed around Mach 2, only orphans
may apply for crew positions!'

Seriously though, I think I put out a TL 7 or 8 space plane that could be
housed in a 20 Disp ton hanger.  It was quite a while ago, before I officially
joined the TML.  (I have no earthly idea where it could be found, I assume
it is in the FTP vehicle site, where ever that is.)  I would STRONGLY suggest
that you all use that as a substitute vehicle should you run that adventure.
Sure there's a lot less cargo carried, but it should do the job the one in
Hard Times is supposed to do.  (I think it was called the Orion)

Leonard also mentioned the 'Skin suit' Huh?  Wassat?  Please elaborate.

By looking at the figures on the suit in there and the description of it, I
assumed they were talking about suits like the ones in Project Mercury.
(that is the TL 6 ones that are a LOT lighter than the TL 7 ones)

I would assume that the TL 7 ones they list are similar to Gemini or Apollo
suits.

The point is that if you put a man in a classic diving suit.  (rubber sealed
cloth and hard helmet)  He would not be able to move at all.  So watch out
for those used vac suit salesmen with bow ties selling slightly used TL 4,5,6
vac suits!  (It was owned by a little old lady from Regina...)

Scott Kellogg
"Let's Get Dangerous!"  -- Darkwing Duck

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3556
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 92 14:24:34 CST
From: Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US (Steve Higginbotham)
Subject: Hard Times addendum

I won't even talk about the assumption that all that high tech equipment
could evaporate in just 5-10 years.  What a concept!

- -- Via DLG Pro v0.985b

Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US

I have learned to use the word "impossible" with the greatest caution.
                                    --W. von Braun

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3557
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1992 17:58 -0500
From: SULAIMAN@ecs.umass.edu
Subject: Battle Rider squadron

 


        CRAFT ID:        Ghauri Class Assault Tender, TL 15, MCr 44177
        HULL:            81000/202500, Disp=90000, Conf= 7USL, Armor = 49G,
                         Unloaded = 886506, Loaded = 1284078t
        POWER:           9300/12400, Fusion = 1674000Mw, Dur = 27/81 at 1G and 
                         only missile/sand active + 1/3 at full power.
        LOCO:            13365/17820, Maneuver = 4G
                         Agility = 0/4, 6075/8100 Jump = 4
        COMMO:           Radio = Sys x 8, Maser = Sys x 8, Laser = Sys x 4
                         Meson = Sys x 4, Radio Jamm = Sys x 4
        SENSORS:         AEMS=Far Orbit x 2, PEMS = Interst x 2, Dens = 1km x 2,
                         Neut = 10kw x 2, AEMS-J Far Orbit x 8 

                         AOScan = Rout, AOPin = Rout
                         POScan = Rout, AOPin = Rout
                         PEScan = Simp, PEPin = Rout
        OFF:             
                         Missiles = xA0 ; Batt = 40, Bear = 30
                         100 Battery Rounds 
        DEF:             DefDM = +8/+12 
                         Meson Scr = 9 x 2, NucDamper = 9 x 2, Black Globe = 2

                         Sand = xx9 ; Batt = 50, Bear = 38
                         
                         Repulsors = x9x ; Batt = 30, Bear = 23
        CONTROL:         Comp=9fib x 3 , Large Holo x 10, Heads Up Holo x 50,
                         HoloLink x 21000. ECP.
                         Environment = Standard except for fuel/weapons area

        ACCOM:           Crew = 285 (Comm = 39, Bridge = 18, Engn = 122, Gunn = 55, 
                         Tr = 40, Med = 2), Small Strooms = 290

        OTHER:           Cargo = 6075kl, Fuel = 385663kl, Magazine = 450kl, Fuel Purif = 48hrs, 
                         Vehicle = 5253kl, Craft = 3 - Aibak class 9000t riders.
                         ObjSize = Large, EMLevel = Mod/Strong

The Ghauri class of Assault tenders form the backbone of Imperial battle rider squadrons. A squadron
consists of three tenders each capable of carrying upto 3 Aibak class riders. The black globe generator can
serve both offensively and defensively. However its primary role is defensive where the enemy manages
to penetrate the rider screen and attack the tender with capital ships. The black globe allows the tender
some measure of defense until support arrives or it can disengage by jumping. Against craft without spinal
weapons the ship's 40 LSP Class X missile bays can launch devastating volleys of nuclear and/or standard
missiles. That combined with its relative agility makes it a hard opponent to catch and destroy. 

The most prominent squadron of the Ghauri class is the 871st Battle Rider squadron, "The Eyes of Death".
The squadron consists of 3 Ghauri class tenders Taimur, Mahmud & Nadir. They carry 9 Aibak-B class
riders. The squadron was used extensively in raids against the Zhodani forces during 5FW. The squadron
chalked up an incredible record of destroying over 15 million displacement tons worth of Zhodani shipping
including combat vessels without losing a single rider. 





        CRAFT ID:        Aibak Class Attack Rider , TL 15, MCr 11627
        HULL:            8100/20250, Disp=9000, Conf= 1SL, Armor = 55G,
                         Unloaded = 182861, Loaded = 184479t
        POWER:           3420/4560, Fusion = 614700Mw, Dur = 25/75
                         (2-G acc and only missiles/sand active) + 1/3 peak output
        LOCO:            2066/2754, Maneuver = 6G, NOE = 150, Cruise= 3150,
                         Agility = 0/6
        COMMO:           Radio = Sys x 2, Maser = Sys x 2, Laser = Sys x 2
                         Meson = Sys x 1
        SENSORS:         AEMS=Far Orbit x 2, PEMS = Interst x 2, Dens = 1km x 2,
                         Neut = 10kw x 2, AEMS-J Far Orbit x 4, Radio Jam = Sys x 4

                         AOScan = Rout, AOPin = Rout
                         POScan = Rout, AOPin = Rout
                         PEScan = Simp, PEPin = Rout

        OFF:             Missiles = xA0 ; Batt = 3, Bear = 3
                         80 Battery Rounds

                         Meson = N0x ; Batt = 1, Bear = 1

        DEF:             DefDM = +9/+15
                         Meson Screen = 9, Nuclear Damper = 9

                         Sand = xx7 ; Batt = 3, Bear = 3
                         
                         Repulsors = x9x ; Batt = 3, Bear = 3

        CONTROL:         Comp=9fib x 3 , HUHolo x 20, Large Holo x 1, 
                         Holo Link x 6000, ECP
                         Environment = Standard except for fuel area
        ACCOM:           Crew = 126(9 x 14) (Comm = 17, Bridge = 12, Engn = 25, 
                         Gunn = 52, Maint=3, Tr = 12, Stew = 4, Medic = 1)
                         Small Strooms = 129
        OTHER:           EMM, ECP, Cargo = 270kl, Fuel = 19257kl, Scoops, Fuel Purif = 21 hrs
                         Magazine = 1200kl, Vehicles = up to 35 tons displacement
                         ObjSize = Large, EMLevel = Moderate

The Aibak class of riders form the backbone of the Imperial Rider squadrons. Inspite of their relatively small
size they pack an enormous punch with their spinal - N meson gun. Contrary to what might be expected
they are well protected and highly agile craft. Standard deployments are on board Ghauri class Attack
Tenders which carry 3 Aibaks. However all Imperial Tenders have the capability of carrying these craft and 
several planetary governments construct them as core ships for system defense squadrons.











        CRAFT ID:        Aibak - B Class Attack Rider , TL 15, MCr 120287
        HULL:            8100/20250, Disp=9000, Conf= 1SL, Armor = 55G,
                         Unloaded = 182800, Loaded = 184397t
        POWER:           3420/4560, Fusion = 614700Mw, Dur = 25/75
                         (2-G acc and only missiles/sand active) + 1/3 peak output
        LOCO:            2066/2754, Maneuver = 6G, NOE = 150, Cruise= 3150,
                         Agility = 0/6
        COMMO:           Radio = Sys x 2, Maser = Sys x 2, Laser = Sys x 2
                         Meson = Sys x 1
        SENSORS:         AEMS=Far Orbit x 2, PEMS = Interst x 2, Dens = 1km x 2,
                         Neut = 10kw x 2, AEMS-J Far Orbit x 4, Radio Jam = Sys x 4

                         AOScan = Rout, AOPin = Rout
                         POScan = Rout, AOPin = Rout
                         PEScan = Simp, PEPin = Rout

        OFF:             Missiles = xA0 ; Batt = 3, Bear = 3
                         80 Battery Rounds

                         Meson = N0x ; Batt = 1, Bear = 1

        DEF:             DefDM = +9/+15
                         Meson Screen = 9, Nuclear Damper = 9, Black Globe = 1

                         Sand = xx7 ; Batt = 3, Bear = 3
                         
                         Repulsors = x9x ; Batt = 3, Bear = 3

        CONTROL:         Comp=9fib x 3 , HUHolo x 20, Large Holo x 1, 
                         Holo Link x 6300, ECP
                         Environment = Standard except for fuel area
        ACCOM:           Crew = 127(9 x 14) (Comm = 17, Bridge = 12, Engn = 25, 
                         Gunn = 53, Maint=3, Tr = 12, Stew = 4, Medic = 1)
                         Small Strooms = 130
        OTHER:           EMM, ECP, Cargo = 270kl, Fuel = 19257kl, Scoops, Fuel Purif = 22 hrs
                         Magazine = 1200kl, Vehicles = up to 30 tons displacement
                         ObjSize = Large, EMLevel = Moderate

The Aibak-B is a specialised battle rider equipped with Black Globe generators. These ships are built in
limited quantity and usually no more than one squadron (9-riders) is available per sector. This is primarily
due to Imperial Naval High Command reluctance to put Black Globe generators on such small craft. Their
role is highly specialised and is basically to penetrate heavy defenses to accomplish some mission or to
surprise enemy defenses. To this end the black globe is used at full on until the whole squadron has closed
wih the enemy. In fleet actions they are sometimes used to penetrate the enemy fleet and reach its "rear"
before the main force engages. Once engaged the low factor Black Globe is of limited use and is usually
turned off. Additionally the lack of jump drives means that the globe cannot be used to protect it while the
ships attempts to jump. When properly deployed the Aibak-B can be highly devastating to prepared enemy
defenses.


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3558
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 92 20:31:46 PST
From: Timothy Soholt <soholt@aludra.usc.edu>
Subject: Re: Antimatter Fuel Availability

I'd think that for an experimental antimatter-powered ship, the folks who
built the ship would have to specially build an antimatter-creation apparatus
to supply the ship. Unless, of course, they're getting the stuff from some
sort of natural source (maybe a tap "through" jumpspace to the "other side"?).

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3559
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1992 00:34:02 -0500 (EST)
From: William Henry Timmins <wt0b+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: (3553) rockets of all kinds

For someone who follows the list but doesn't use Traveller:

What's an impulse equal to?

- -Me
[Pooh Bear incarnate.]


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3560
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 92 12:06:52 est
From: "The few, the proud, the employed (Anderson, Richard)" <ANDERSOR@DICKINSN.

Bitnet>
To:   traveller@metolius.wr.tek.com
Subject: Economics in Hard Times


Steve Higgenbotham offers a dissenting view of the "Hard Times" scenario
presented by GDW.  The following is my rebuttal, with my assertions drawn
mostly from how we understand international economics to work... (or not work,
depending upon whom you ask).

>The basic assumption about Hard Times TL loss is that the worlds are trying
>to become self-sufficient by dropping back 5 TLs and punting.

>Why should this be so?

It is so, mainly because the vast majority of these planets never indigenously
developed the technological base to support their tech levels.  This does not
mean that *all* the planets in the Former Imperium will revert back to TL15,
nor do I believe that this is what "Hard Times" intended to imply.  There
would naturally be certain cores of development, mostly around the oldest and
most developed regions of the FI (Former Imperium).  In fact, this is exactly
what we see in "Hard Times", with the compact "safe zones" around the capitals
of the major players (Wariner, Capitol, Vland, etc.)

Nevertheless, the vast majority of the worlds have suffered either one of two
fates:  A) They have been in the way of two or more large battle fleets (just
take Zarushagar as a prime example); or B) They were backwater regions that
survived on what limited trade did come through (the Reaver's Deep area comes
to mind).  Some places, such as the Trojan Reaches and parts of the Solomani
Rim, are a victim of both.  Thus the "wilds" described in "Hard Times".  In
essence, the planets that are reduced to near TL5 were either bombarded or
starved back into the Stone Age (i.e. the 1950's).

>                                               So why does it then follow
>that they would spend lots of money building industries to produce archaic
>equipment?  If you need to spend the money on new industries anyway, why
>not build industries producing modern stuff?

Primarily, they don't have the technological know-how required, nor (even more
importantly) the capital to do the job.  They may have a lot of money, but if
they don't have the silicon-etching equipment to make a TL8 computer, then how
are they going to make a TL8 computer?  (Consider a country like Ethiopia
trying to start up its own semiconductor chip industry without foreign
capital!)  And just look at the Former Soviet Union.  Here was a former
Superpower that today, can't even feed itself.  With such examples so
prevalent in the contemporary world, it takes very little imagination to see
how the Imperium might unravel, given 5+ years of cataclysmic war.

>I mean, we're TL8, right?  If we suffered a major economic loss (up to but
>excluding a high level nuclear exchange), it would be EXTREMELY unlikely
>that we would stop building automobiles and start building horse-carts.
>The need would not be there unless 99+% of our auto industry were blasted
>into the stratosphere.  Even then, it would be EASIER to reconstruct to
>build something we are familiar with, rather than something we've never
>done before.

On this point, I must disagree most strongly.  First of all, if there had been
any but the *MOST LIMITED* (i.e. one or two detonations) of nuclear exchanges,
the world would have been lucky to escape with 5% of its manufacturing
capacity intact.  Most probably, a nuclear war would completely demolish all
industrial capacity for at least two years.  (The minimum time required for
the surviving population to reach some sort of morbidity equilibrium *and*
begin feeding itself on a reliable basis).  I believe that a liberal estimate
of this new population level would be on the order of tens of millions of
people WORLDWIDE.  Not nearly enough to sustain industry of any size.  THIS is
exactly what the worlds inside the former battlezones of the FI have to deal
with.

Regarding the point that it would be easier for us to construct an automobile
than a horse cart, it may be true.  But, there would be no capacity to
construct automobiles in a post-nuclear holocaust Earth.  We would be lucky to
have horse-drawn wagons, or even horses!

>In Hard Times, it is possible for a TL15 world to lose grav technology.
>Grav is a 10,000 year old technology.  It would be like us losing the
>ability to build a WHEEL!

Not quite.  The wheel is the single simplest machine known to humankind.  Grav
technology requires a well-developed technological/industrial base.  About the
only worlds with that kind of home-grown capacity are exactly the ones inside
the "safe zones".

>                               It is also unreasonable to suppose that, after
>losing grav, the world would build a factory to produce items that noone
>has seen for 10,000 years (wheeled vehicles, that is).  As long as you
>gotta build a factory, build a TL15 grav vehicle plant.  It's going to cost
>gobs of money either way, but this way you get something GOOD for the
>money.

War is hell.

Finally, regarding Steve's point about high TL machinery suddenly
disappearing, I would have to agree with him.  The whole idea is ludicrous.
I'm sure there would be mountains of very high-tech novelties just lying
around.  Some of them might even work.  But just try to maintain them, or get
them repaired!  Does anyone know where there's a technician with Laser
Weapons-5 and Electronics-4?  Big $$$$$$$$.

Sorry this got so long.  I guess I just got up on a soapbox again.  Oh well,
at least we don't have to be insulted with an Imperium-wide computer virus
anymore.

RHA
Richard H. Anderson
ANDERSOR@DICKINSON.EDU


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3561
From: zonker@ihlpf.att.COM
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 92 13:45 CST
Subject: Genie Roundtable

I suspect you will not hear much from anyone at GDW until the revised
Command Decision rules book is finished.  This is a mounumental task
as there will be well over 100 WWII division level OBs in it.

						Tom Harris

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3562
Date: 26 Jan 92 04:52:53 EST
From: Leonard Erickson <70465.203@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: skinsuit, specfic impulse

Ok, I goofed! (Hey, I said that I didn't have the books handy!)

Anyway, to answer Scott's question, a vacc suit has to supply two things.
First, it has to have a gas-tight membrane of some sort, so as to prevent
loss of oxygen. Second, it has to support the internal pressure required
(at least 3 psi for pure oxygen, 15 psi for oxy/nitro)

It turns out that *skin* will work just fine as the gas barrier. So a
skinsuit is basicly an elastic leotard that supplies the pressure required
to keep your body from doing nasty things to itself. You do have to add
some padding and the like in a few areas to round things out, plus you
need an arrangement over the chest to allow for breathing (sort of a
balloon to keep the volume unchanging). Just add a neck seal and helmet,
and you have a suit. 

This actually has advantages over regular suits, as you get to use your
body's built-in cooling system instead of one of those bulky packs. Sweat
carries away a *lot* of heat when it is evaporating in a vacuum! 

Such suits were built and tested in the mid-50s (I beleive it was done at
Wright-Patterson AFB). They had their own problems, such as being *very*
hard to put on or take off, and needing to be *very* formfitting. They
also needed an elastic that didn't degrade upon long exposure to vacuum.
But they were actually *worn* in a vacuum chamber during testing. 


Now for Pooh Bear's comment about impulse...
Rocket efficiency is measured in terms of "specific impulse" (in this
case, specific has the same meaning as in "specific gravity", that is,
"per unit of mass"). 

In other words, "specific impulse" meaans "how big an impulse (momentum
change) can a unit mass of fuel cause".

The "formula" is ancient (and ignores unit balance):
Isp = (pounds of thrust) / (pounds per second of fuel consumption) 
This give Isp in seconds. Another means of calculating it is to divide the
exhaust velocity by g (32.17 ft per second^2 or 9.8 m/sec^2).

As I said, there's a fundamental flaw in the way the units are expressed,
but it *does* work. With an Isp of 450, the Space Shutttle engines could
produce 450 tons of thrust with a fuel flow rate of 1 ton per second of
fuel. (450 = 450/1) From this point, calculations are easy.

I usually go by an *old* chart that NASA distributed to partically every
science classroom in the country. It listed the Isp for the following
types of rocket:
chemical	400 (theoretical max at the time)
"nuclear heating" 
(ie NERVA)	800
fusion		600,000
ion		??? (can't recall)
photon		31 million

Note that from the real world we have things like the better model rocket
solid fuel engines doing about 180 (Centuri Enerjet engines in the mid
70s) and the Space Shuttle main engines doing 450 or so (and I hear that
it's unlikely that they can be improved on as far as Isp goes...
maintenance, and cost are a different matter)



------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3563
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: VLSI and Mideval Pigeons
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 92 11:28:07 MET

  Somebody said (I can't quote due to a flakey system:( that GMAST-L is
currently discussing nanotech battle-dress, and it made me think about one 
possible source of error when trying to predict the future.

  Imagine an SF-writer in the middle ages. Larry Niven model 1400. This 
enterprising writer has a question: How would the society look if the 
communications capability were to increase hundredfold. He makes the not
totally unresonable assumption that people in the future will be able to
store documents several illuminated folio pages long on little pieces of
rock, he calls them 'stone chips'.
  Now this is almost exactly how it is going to be. I envy the person that
can get it this right. But what will his next step (based on the time he lives
in, the technology they have there and so on) be? 
  In all times, people has tried to squeeze in a lot of text on thin paper to
get it to fit on the leg of a homing pigeon. So what the writer writes about 
is how these 'stone chips' are put on the legs of homing pigeons and how this
gian leap in communications technology affects the society.

  The error here is that between pigeon and chips, a lot of other technologies
will emerge, some of which are more suitable for communications than 
the writers' air-mobile EPROMs. Are we doing the same kind of error when
we try to predict the future: Certainly, but we don't know in what areas.

  Take the nanotech battle-dress for example: In my not so humble opinion,
a nanotech battle-dress is comparable with a silicon-lubricated electrically
operated aluminium ballista shooting tungsten quarrels. The changes brought on
by nano-tech so advanced that one can make a battledress out of it is 
probably so big that the need of battle-dress will disappear. Why walk to the
enemy and blow his brains out when you can send out a grey-goo nanobot and 
make mush out of him with a kill-probability of 99.9%?

  On the other hand there is also the opposite problem: Inflated belief that
new inventions will make current tactics etc. obsolete: Witness the missile-
mania of the 60's where every tank, aircraft, ship or sub could be replaced
by the appropriate missile that would do their job much cheeper and without
any drawbacks. Well, it didn't happen that way: We still have tanks and 
aircrafts and so on.

  But I still don't believe a nano-tech battledress will be needed:)

- -bertil-
- -- 
  Hey? Where did my .sig go? I know the system is flakey but not *that*
flakey!

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3564
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 92 11:43:04 CST
From: Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US (Steve Higginbotham)
Subject: rebuttal to the rebuttal

 
>From: William Henry Timmins <wt0b+@andrew.cmu.edu>
>
>For someone who follows the list but doesn't use Traveller:
>
>What's an impulse equal to?
 
Specific impulse is a measure of rocket/jet performance.  It is defined
as the number of seconds a unit of fuel can support it's own weight in
one G.  If you multiply specific impulse by 9.8m/s^2 (or 32.2ft/s^2),
the result is exhaust velocity of the propellant in m/s (or ft/s).
 
This value can then be inserted into:
 
     deltaV = (exhaust velocity)*ln[(initial mass)/(initial mass - fuel 
mass)]
 
to get the rocket's total deltaV
 
To rebut parts of the rebuttal:
 
  1)
>>                                            So why does it then follow
>>that they would spend lots of money building industries to produce
archaic
>>equipment?  If you need to spend the money on new industries anyway,
why
>>not build industries producing modern stuff?
>
>Primarily, they don't have the technological know-how required, nor
(even more
>importantly) the capital to do the job.  They may have a lot of money,
but if
>they don't have the silicon-etching equipment to make a TL8 computer,
then how
>are they going to make a TL8 computer?  (Consider a country like
Ethiopia
>trying to start up its own semiconductor chip industry without foreign
>capital!)  And just look at the Former Soviet Union.  Here was a former
>Superpower that today, can't even feed itself.  With such examples so
>prevalent in the contemporary world, it takes very little imagination
to see
>how the Imperium might unravel, given 5+ years of cataclysmic war.
 
So what happened to those IDPs (Imperial Data Packages)???  WHile it is
true that you have to have the tools to build the tools, the IDPs
provide convenient blueprints for all that good stuff.  Did they all
evaporate too?
The Soviet Union was never a superpower, they were a third world country
with nuclear weapons.  Notice also that it took 70 YEARS for the Soviet
Union to reach that point.  Hard Times assumes the Imperium will reach
it in 5 years or less.
 
>>I mean, we're TL8, right?  If we suffered a major economic loss (up to
but
>>excluding a high level nuclear exchange), it would be EXTREMELY
unlikely
>>that we would stop building automobiles and start building
horse-carts.
>>The need would not be there unless 99+% of our auto industry were
blasted
>>into the stratosphere.  Even then, it would be EASIER to reconstruct
to
>>build something we are familiar with, rather than something we've
never
>>done before.
>
>On this point, I must disagree most strongly.  First of all, if there
had been
>any but the *MOST LIMITED* (i.e. one or two detonations) of nuclear
exchanges,
>the world would have been lucky to escape with 5% of its manufacturing
>capacity intact.  Most probably, a nuclear war would completely
demolish all
>industrial capacity for at least two years.  (The minimum time required
for
>the surviving population to reach some sort of morbidity equilibrium
*and*
>begin feeding itself on a reliable basis).  I believe that a liberal
estimate
>of this new population level would be on the order of tens of millions
of
>people WORLDWIDE.  Not nearly enough to sustain industry of any size. 
THIS is
>exactly what the worlds inside the former battlezones of the FI have to
deal
>with.
 
Actually, if you look closely at Hard Times, the effects of prolonged
nuclear bombardment are covered in a different section.  The TL loss IS
affected by level of destruction, but will take place to a lesser extent
if there is no bombardment at all.
The population loss due to the war is also dealt with, and is seldom
that extreme, anyway.
The notion (to change the subject back down to Earth for a second) that
a general nuclear exchange between the USA and the Soviet Union would
destroy the industry in South America, Africa, Australia, Asia, etc. 
has always puzzled me.  Could you explain why detonating bombs in North
America should destroy factories in South America???
In any case, with bombardment that extensive, the world (MT one again)
will not drop back 5 TLs, but will drop back 15 and start all over.  Not
the situation described in Hard Times either.
 
>>In Hard Times, it is possible for a TL15 world to lose grav
technology.
>>Grav is a 10,000 year old technology.  It would be like us losing the
>>ability to build a WHEEL!
>
>Not quite.  The wheel is the single simplest machine known to humankind. 
Grav>technology requires a well-developed technological/industrial base. 
About the
>only worlds with that kind of home-grown capacity are exactly the ones
inside
>the "safe zones".
 
So, how simple is Grav technlogy?  I didn't know that we had developed
it yet.  I assumed that any discussion of the technical difficulty of
Grav would have to wait until we got it and found out how hard it was.
 
Notice that the process for making reliably good steel took 2000+ years
to perfect, BUT was an EXTREMELY SIMPLE process, once you know how.
Notice that Fusion plants are so difficult that we haven't quite got one
working yet, but the construction of a Tokamak (for instance) is simpler
than an automobile engine.  Just bigger.
 
>Finally, regarding Steve's point about high TL machinery suddenly
>disappearing, I would have to agree with him.  The whole idea is
ludicrous.
>I'm sure there would be mountains of very high-tech novelties just lying
>around.  Some of them might even work.  But just try to maintain them, or
get
>them repaired!  Does anyone know where there's a technician with Laser
>Weapons-5 and Electronics-4?  Big $$$$$$$$.
 
My microwave has lasted for seven years without maintenance.  My car
seven years without any spare parts other than oil filters and brake
shoes, and without maintenance that I couldn't do with the tools in the
my trunk.  The only time this computer has been in the shop has been to
add more memory and a better modem.  My father's Air-Conditioner has
been chugging away for 14 years now with no maintenance except a new
filter every year or so.
Cynthia points out that her mother's microwave lasted 14 years without
maintenance.  It was also one of those microwaves that still used
pre-solid state components.
The US Navy's SSBNs have been operating for ~30 years.  There hasn't
even been a factory making most of their major spares since 1972.  They
swap equipment around from each other, and refurbish it in Navy shops. 
They've been doing that for 20 years now, and the boats still spend 250+
days per year at sea.  Or so it was when I was on a boomer 5 years ago.
 
So why should TL15 equipment be MORE prone to failure than modern
equipment.  After all, they should have fewer moving parts, better
materials, beter manufacturing processes, better everything.  So why
should they break down so fast?  After all, a world like Terra (1128)
probably has 10,000,000,000 small fusion plants (in grav vehicles), as
well as the grav generators in those vehicles.  I'm pretty sure we could
keep 1,000,000,000 or so of those running with spare parts from the
others.  Probably for 100 years or more.
 
(up on my soapbox)
The primary requirements for high technology are knowledge (provided by
IDPs in the Imperium), and energy (lots and lots of it).  Rob Dean
pointed out that one Atlantis class battleship had ten times the
generation capacity of the USA.  Assuming that "shattered ships of the
fighting Imperium"  designs have any validity at all, virtually every
battleship in the Imperium produces 5+ times as much energy as the USA
does.  Assuming that free-traders aren't blasted out of space, the
free-trader's power plant produces more energy than the world did 75
years ago.  The energy will NOT be hard to come up with in the Imperium,
the knowledge is already there, the Hard Times will last for a few years
at most.
 
Notice that in 1919 Germany was in worse shape than most Imperial
planets : total economic collapse was beginning, their industry was all
in the hands of their enemies, and there was no external support to
speak of.  20 years later, they had a MORE advanced technology than any
of their neighbors (including the USA), and had built an industrial
complex that allowed them to fight the USA and USSR for four long years
till it was overcome.  And they din't even fully mobilize their industry
for wartime production until 1944!  If they can do that, why should a
world in the Imperium, with blueprints in hand, have a hard time
duplicating their recovery?
 
(these soapboxes are tiring.  My blood pressure can't take too much at a
time)
 
Later...

- -- Via DLG Pro v0.985b

Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US

I have learned to use the word "impossible" with the greatest caution.
                                    --W. von Braun

------------------------------

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From: traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com (TML Administrator)
Subject: TML Bundle #289: Table of Contents

-AMN- --Date--- --Sender--------- --Subject-----------------------------------
3565  26-Jan-92 Hans Rancke-Madse Surviving Hard Times << Richard Anderson writ
3566  26-Jan-92 Cynthia_Higginbot Traveller PBEM proposal << I am planning to r
3567  27-Jan-92 Arthur Green      Hard Times << G'day all ... On the subject of
3568  27-Jan-92 A_COPEAB@CCSVAX.S nanotech battlesuits << I was the one who ori
3569  27-Jan-92 Steve_Higginbotha post Hard Times... << Hans Rancke-Madsen writ
3570  27-Jan-92 Steve_Higginbotha VERY heavy spaceplanes... << I noticed Rob De
3571  27-Jan-92 Steve_Higginbotha TL high infantry... << BTW, rob, your comment
3572  27-Jan-92 gwh@lurnix.LURNIX Low-Tech Rockets in Hard Times << Steve isn't
3573  27-Jan-92 PCD               Hard times economic rebuttals << This is my f
3574  27-Jan-92 burt@ptltd.COM     << Subject: Hard times I don't have it (and 
3575  27-Jan-92 Mark F. Cook      TML PBEM Redux? << In TML Subject 3566, Cynth
3576  28-Jan-92 hayes@ll.mit.edu  Re: Games for Sale << I'm sorry, I missed you

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3565
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Surviving Hard Times
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 92 21:48:47 MET

Richard Anderson writes:
>Steve Higgenbotham offers a dissenting view of the "Hard Times" scenario
>presented by GDW.  The following is my rebuttal, with my assertions drawn
>mostly from how we understand international economics to work... (or not
>work, depending upon whom you ask).
>
>>The basic assumption about Hard Times TL loss is that the worlds are trying
>>to become self-sufficient by dropping back 5 TLs and punting.
>
>>Why should this be so?
>
>It is so, mainly because the vast majority of these planets never
>indigenously developed the technological base to support their tech levels.

They must be pretty close with respect to their basic requirements though.
It might have been cheaper for a world to import luxury grav cars instead
of building them themselves, but imagine the trade fleet necessary to
supply a basic runaround floater for every family on Mora. And even if they
import them all, they certainly will do their own maintenance!

>Nevertheless, the vast majority of the worlds have suffered either one of
>two fates:  A) They have been in the way of two or more large battle fleets
>(just take Zarushagar as a prime example); or B) They were backwater regions
>that survived on what limited trade did come through (the Reaver's Deep
>area comes to mind).

If the trade was limited then the reliance on it would be limited too.
You can't have it both ways. Planets in backwaters would be _less_
susceptible to the loss of trade than those in other areas.

>Some places, such as the Trojan Reaches and parts of the Solomani
>Rim, are a victim of both.  Thus the "wilds" described in "Hard Times".  In
>essence, the planets that are reduced to near TL5 were either bombarded or
>starved back into the Stone Age (i.e. the 1950's).

Any society that can maintain an industrial tech level is pretty well
organized. It will have both the industrial support, ressources,
manpower and knowledge to climb the tech levels fast. Level 5
technology isn't very ressource friendly. If you can maintain
that, you can maintain a higher TL, if only you can achieve it.
And even if the know-how isn't there, the basic knowledge is there.
It's bootstrapping yourself up from a pre-industrial tech level
that would be a problem. Any society with TL 5 is more than
halfway to TL 10 :-)

>>                                              So why does it then follow
>>that they would spend lots of money building industries to produce archaic
>>equipment?  If you need to spend the money on new industries anyway, why
>>not build industries producing modern stuff?

>Primarily, they don't have the technological know-how required, nor (even
>more importantly) the capital to do the job.  They may have a lot of
>money, but if they don't have the silicon-etching equipment to make a TL8
>computer, then how are they going to make a TL8 computer?

Some other way. The history of our own planet shows that man (well, some
men :-) are infinitely inventive. And hard times (like wars) seems to
stimulate inventiveness enourmously. Remember, they may not have the
technological know-how, but they will have the theoretical knowledge.
Considering the ability Terran scientists have demonstrated for duplicating
inventions that they just knew existed, any society that already has a
basic textbook about the subject will be able to cope.

[About the bad effect of nuclear bombardments]

>Grav technology requires a well-developed technological/industrial base.
>About the only worlds with that kind of home-grown capacity are exactly
>the ones inside the "safe zones".

I've read enough after-the-holocaust stories to accept the concept of an
Imperial fleet bombing a world back to the stone age (but not, as mentioned
above, back to TL 5 (except very temporarily). What I object to in
Hard Times is the assumption that worlds that does survive the war years
relatively intact will be unable to recover and that the new polities will
inevitably fail after a few years. In the two subsectors detailed in Hard
Times alone there are four planets that IMO would be capable of reestablishing
interstellar trade on a limited basis: Accra (C6877A4-B), Khavle (C334965-B),
Aight (C752A98-A) and Westfir (B326882-B). On the other hand I have my doubts
about the only planet with a surviving class A starport, Medora (A422530-B).
With a population of only 400.000 the amount of starships it can build and/or
maintain will be on the slender side. At the very least it will need to band
together with neighbouring planets. But any high-population world with a
tech level of 11 and above will be a polity (or the core of one) in itself.
"Ah, but..." I hear you say. "Westfir can only maintain starships, not build
them with it's class B starport, and the other three are even worse off with
their miserable class C starports." Ah yes! That brings me to my worst peeve
wrt Hard Times: That there is no provision for any of the numbers
_increasing_. Pre-Rebellion Westfir had a class B starport despite it's tech
level of 13 being more than enough to build jump-drives. Why? Obviously
because other nearby worlds could make starships cheaper than they could
themselves (which nearby worlds are a mystery. All the worlds in the two
subsectors with an A starport (pre-Rebellion) have populations of 5 or less;
it's a mistake to believe that semi-random numbers will make sense without
a bit of judicious tweaking. But I digress). In 1124 Westfir's starport is
still class B and presumably relatively intact (since it still is class B
;-), while most nearby class A starports are history. So what is Westfir's
obvious next move? Why, to convert some of it's extensive spaceship con-
struction and starship maintenance capacity to starship construction.
Bingo, one class A starport. The cases of Accra, Khavle and Aight are perhaps
a little less easy. Khavle's shipyards, for example, propably suffered in the
events that reduced it's starport from class B to C, but in 1128 it still has
a population of 7 billion. Surely they can manage to get a portion of their
shipyards operational, especially if trade really is so all-fired important
to them. Even 10% of their prewar capacity comes to a tidy bit. One obvious
jury-rig is an alliance with Medora wherein Medora switches to producing
jumpdrives exclusively and Khavle makes all the rest of the ships. A very
beneficial arrangement for both sides, I should think.

One danger, that Hard Times does _not_ address, is the possibility that all
these new polities will war with each other over trade planets. I believe
that there would be a lot more new polities in 1128 than Hard Times thinks;
I also believe that a number of them will have succumbed to neighbours
within a decade. But there will also be a lot that survives.

>
>Finally, regarding Steve's point about high TL machinery suddenly
>disappearing, I would have to agree with him.  The whole idea is ludicrous.

Here, at least, we are in complete accord :-)



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "And now to conclude and to finish my song.
         Let us hope that these hard times, they will not last long.
         I hope soon to have occasion to alter my song;
         and sing: All the good times of the Empire.
              In the Empire are jolly good times."

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3566
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 92 22:56:38 CST
From: Cynthia_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US (Cynthia Higginbotham)
Subject: Traveller PBEM proposal

I am planning to run a private MegaTraveller play-by-email game. 
Right now, I would like to know how many people would be interested in 
joining in.  If you are interested, please drop me a note, and when I
have evaluated all the responses (if any), I will mail interested
parties more specific guidelines on Campaign Background, Starting a
Character, House Rules, etc, etc.
Starting assumptions: Third Imperium, just post-5th Frontier War
(1111-1113) in the Spinward Marches.  I would appreciate it if you could
send me a short synopsis (say, 100 words or less) describing what sort
of campaign you are interested in (if you have a strong preference)
(mercenaries and mayhem, spys and intrigue, merchant to the stars, to
boldly go where no man has gone before, whatever ??) and what kind of
character you would like to play. I can't guarantee that everyone will
get to do exactly what they want, but I will take your preferences into
account when designing the campaign and its adventures.  Note that in
the Spinward Marches, we can justify any race except maybe Hiver, and
I'm looking at both the Imperial regions and the Sword Worlds as places
to start things off.  
James and Richard, since you have coordinated this sort of thing
before, I would appreciate any tips, suggestions, caveats, advice you
might have.  Tentatively, following the lead of a very good friend of
mine who runs a play-by-surface-mail fantasy rpg, I intend to (a) NOT
run things at the tactical level (i.e., we won't get tied up going
blow-by-blow over the mail), (b) have a multi-generational campaign, and
(c) allow the players to be movers & shakers if it happens to work out
that way.  
By private, I *think* that I mean "handling things the same way the
Richard's PBEM handled it", but I'm not sure.  What I mean is that
player turns would be sent to me, and my responses sent back to them via
e-mail, not posted to the TML for public view.  Am I correct in
believing that that is the way Richard handled it?  However, if most
players agree, and TML readers are interested, I would post a synopsis
of current events in the PBEM to the TML for all to read.  Opinions,
anyone?
 

- -- Via DLG Pro v0.985b

cynthia_higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3567
Date: 27 Jan 92 13:01:00 GMT
From: Arthur Green <ARTHUR@cclana.ucd.ie>
Subject: Hard Times

G'day all ...
    On the subject of Hard Times, I managed to acquire a copy this
weekend in the local games shop/record emporium. It looks
interesting, as does the discussions in here recently.

The close analogue to an Imperial planet is a country, rather than
the whole planet. Take for example the 'planet' Ireland: medium size,
breathable atmosphere, nice climate (if a bit damp). Population is
about 4 million, primary exports are animal and dairy products,
alcohol (Guinness ... yum), assembled computer peripherals and
software. There is also some trade in clothing, music and other
artforms. Locally-owned seaborne links to the rest of the world
(equivalent to starships) amount to a few small or medium sized
freighters. *Everything* else is imported. In fact, Ireland's
computer equipment exports are assemblies only -- no native
production of the parts. As I understand it, Hard Times is about the
collapse of large-scale interstellar trade: if that goes, Ireland is
on its knees. No parts for its transport, no spares for its computer
networks, phones, microwave ovens, dishwashers ... and in this case
there are no serious iron or reserves with which to build local
replacements. What I'm trying to say is that many planets don't have
the industrial base to maintain themselves without interstellar trade.

In any case, I'm sort of puzzled by these pirates. Why have they such
crummy ships (and also why don't the splinters of the Imperium go and
take them out)? I know the Imperial Navy is supposed to be down to
about 30% strength, but the other 70% can't all be radioactive
vapour. How come the pirates are running round in X-boat tenders and
mining ships? How about some remnants of the destroyer raiding
squadrons? Anyway, if the pirates have such poor equipment, why can't
the factions send out some patrols and deal with them. A Gazelle-
class or the escort in MTJ2 (Fiery-class? I can't remember) should be
able to take out a corsair easily enough (factor-5 lasers and heavy
armour -- critical hits on a corsair and none on the escort).

What do all these pirates live on? I can cope with the idea of
occasional pirates hiding out near some trade route and taking a
crack at rich-looking merchantmen, but what's the point of raiding
planets? Pirates have a need for fuel, spare parts, ordnance, food
etc and a market somewhere else for the stuff they steal. Raiding
planets will surely most likely get them a holdful of potatoes, not
luxuries or items in scarce supply which they can sell elsewhere in
the outland areas.

Overall, I see Hard Times as an attempt to have adventures in the
Long Night, which is fair enough. However I do have some reservations
about the effects the collapse will have. Also, it cuts down on the
options available to characters -- if they're in the outlans they're
either pirates, prey or starmercs.
 -  Arthur Green
    University College Dublin Computing Services
    Email: arthur@cclana.ucd.ie     Tel: +353 1 269-3244

    "A waist is a terrible thing to mind"

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3568
Date:    Mon, 27 Jan 1992 8:26:42 -0600 (CST)
From: A_COPEAB@CCSVAX.SFASU.EDU (Brandon Cope)
Subject: nanotech battlesuits

I was the one who originally brought it up here. I am also one of the few
people in the discussion on GMAST-L who *doesn't* favor the use of
nanotechnology for battlesuits, though my objection was more from a game
balance side (arrgh, I hate to use that term...) than a reality one; face it,
the PCs will eventually become dependant on the nanotechnology, and their suits
will become more important than they are. Yes, yes, I know one could always
have the suits break down to prevent this, but if you are going to have the
suits (or any other nanotechnology) break down this often, why introduce them?
What was worse, the discussion has been getting around to defensive shields --
If you're going to be wearing a state-of-the art armored suit, isn't it being a
little redundant to put a great deal of shielding on the suits as well? Of
course, the kind of stuff being discussed would be about TL20+ in Traveller,
nothing I'd let my PCs get *their* hands on.

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3569
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 92 09:11:08 CST
From: Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US (Steve Higginbotham)
Subject: post Hard Times...

 
Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:
 
>One danger, that Hard Times does _not_ address, is the possibility that
all
>these new polities will war with each other over trade planets. I
believe
>that there would be a lot more new polities in 1128 than Hard Times
thinks;
>I also believe that a number of them will have succumbed to neighbours
>within a decade. But there will also be a lot that survives.
 
I am forced to agree, more or less.
We (Cynthia and I) have not spent much time looking at the Warring
States period of the Recovery.  We both noticed that the Hard Times are
ideal periods for the "man on a horse" syndrome:  the Strong Leader
(read: Hitler, Stalin, Churchill, Roosevelt) will rescue us from all our
problems if we just do everything he says.  Some of these Leaders will
be benevolent.  Some won't.  There should be long term warfare in the
Former Imperium between the various polities and their various Leaders.
 
BUT...
 
We really should keep in mind those "Safe Areas".  They are already
larger, stronger, and more industrialized than any polity is likely to
be in the next few years.  Now that the shooting has stopped, they
should start re-expanding into the void within a few years at most. 
This MAY result in resumed general warfare between Lucan and the
Universe, but Lucan is the Leader LEAST capable of re-expanding:  He
tends to destroy worlds that annoy him, and that tends to cause people
to fight to the last breath to keep from being conquered by him (sort of
like the Russian partisans in WW2 - Stalin was a bastard, but Hitler was
worse, so let's keep Hitler out no matter what it takes).  Norris,
Vland, Margaret, possibly Dulinor should be pushing their borders back
well before 1130.  
Unfortunately, they are all going to run into the Solomani Confederation
pushing IT'S borders back.  I suspect, in the long run, that the Former
Iperium will become the Rule of Man (again!) with government on Terra.
 
Later...

- -- Via DLG Pro v0.985b

Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US

I have learned to use the word "impossible" with the greatest caution.
                                    --W. von Braun

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3570
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 92 13:31:43 CST
From: Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US (Steve Higginbotham)
Subject: VERY heavy spaceplanes...

I noticed Rob Dean's suggestions for dealing with EXTREMELY HEAVY lift
vehicles with interest.  Here are my suggestions:

      1)  Put factor 40 armor around the life-system only.  I doubt that
the fuel tanks and drives need radiation protection.

       2) If hulls with variable armor thickness bother you, build your
spacecraft as a 2-stage craft.  The first stage is  armored to level 40,
and contains engines and life-system.  The second stage contains fuel and
cargo, and is armored to level 8.

In either case, you produce a craft that is a whole lot more reasonable.

As to the LALV problem, I finally figured out why it is a problem.  Hard
Times made a slight change to COACC that resulted in the rocket being more
efficient than a jet.  The fuel + oxidizer weighs LESS than the fuel alone
in the jet.  An odd state of affairs, at best.
Without tampering with the rules too much, try this:  a scramjet (with
identical characteristics to a ramjet except fuel usage) burns H2 in
atmospheric oxygen at a rate 75% of that of a high performance rocket. 
Since the fuel has a very low density, this is equivalent to burning 1/6th
as much fuel as the rocket does.  Eliminate the LOOONG flight to orbit. 
The NASP mission profile calls for almost a straight boost into orbit from
15000m.  A LALV should be required to sustain flight for THREE times as
long as an equivalent rocket, plus any loiter time in atmosphere at the end
of flight.  And remember air-to-air refueling.  It helps a lot!  
This way, the LALV is actually an advantage over a rocket, and so worth
building.

ALternately, if using NERVA, steal an idea from Arthur Clarke.  Have the
NERVA use atmosphere for propellant till it reaches the stratosphere.  Then
the LALV will use NO FUEL AT ALL except that 1/10th required for orpbital
insertion.  Very efficient, quite cost effective as an alternat to Grav.

Later...

- -- Via DLG Pro v0.985b

Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US

I have learned to use the word "impossible" with the greatest caution.
                                    --W. von Braun

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3571
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 92 13:35:23 CST
From: Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US (Steve Higginbotham)
Subject: TL high infantry...

BTW, rob, your comment about TL15 infantry being too vulnerable and all
their targets being too invulnerable (to them) sounds a lot like what they
said after WW2.  And WW1.  And the Franco-Prussian War.  And the American
Civil War.  And the Thirty Years War.  And the Hundred Years War.  And
Alexander's conquests.  And the Persian Attacks on Greece. and...

- -- Via DLG Pro v0.985b

Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US

I have learned to use the word "impossible" with the greatest caution.
                                    --W. von Braun

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3572
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 92 11:31:55 pst
From: gwh@lurnix.LURNIX.COM (George William Herbert)
Subject: Low-Tech Rockets in Hard Times


	Steve isn't the only one to be offended by the rocket design
tables in Hard Times... 8-)
	I'm in the process of coming up with a correction "diff" (new
design tables et. al.) to fix the problems.  The only thing I don't
know is wether it's worth it to include the real-world delta-V formula
or not (delV = G * Isp * ln(Mr) ... ).  The simple solution is to leave
his rules in place and fix the engines, but I'm not sure that the result
would be very close to real-world...

	BTW, one complaint that Steve had isn't valid; there is after all
a good reason for using lift assisted launch vehicles... reusability.
Recovering most rocket-type launch vehicles is impossible.  Not so with
a LALV.
	Note that I simply reject any presumption that it's possible to 
reuse normal rockets.  In my free time I design some of them, so I know
much better 8-)

	Besides which, once we get scramjets properly in the design
sequence, they have an actual Isp of as high as 1350 or so, three times
that of a shuttle main engine.  See?  There _are_ good reasons... 8-)

- -george william herbert
gwh@ocf.berkeley.edu  gwh@lurnix.lurnix.com

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3573
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 92 16:27:26 EST
From: PCD <duggan@siam.org>
Subject: Hard times economic rebuttals


          This is my first post to the list, at least in a long while.
          HI!

Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US (Steve Higginbotham)
responds:


>Primarily, they don't have the technological know-how required, nor (even
>>more importantly) the capital to do the job.  They may have a lot of money,
>>but if they don't have the silicon-etching equipment to make a TL8 computer,
>>then how are they going to make a TL8 computer?  (Consider a country like
>>Ethiopia trying to start up its own semiconductor chip industry without 
>>foreign capital!)  And just look at the Former Soviet Union.  Here was a 
>>former Superpower that today, can't even feed itself.  With such examples 
>>so prevalent in the contemporary world, it takes very little imagination
>>to see how the Imperium might unravel, given 5+ years of cataclysmic war.
>
>So what happened to those IDPs (Imperial Data Packages)???  WHile it is
>true that you have to have the tools to build the tools, the IDPs
>provide convenient blueprints for all that good stuff.  Did they all
>evaporate too?
>The Soviet Union was never a superpower, they were a third world country
>with nuclear weapons.  Notice also that it took 70 YEARS for the Soviet
>Union to reach that point.  Hard Times assumes the Imperium will reach
>it in 5 years or less.

Would the IDPs be coming through with the piracy and war that is
suppossed to be wreaking such havoc? Were these things being sent out for
free? (note:I haven't yet aquired Hard Times, so I may be speaking from
considerable ignorance)

The Soviets did have massive industial plants though- I don't think
it's fair to call them a third-world nation. They fielded not just
nukes, but a navy, submarines, tanks, etc, and had a burgeoning space program.
Admeittedly, they havn't forgetten any of that stuff yet. But maybe
all the smart-guys on the hi-tech worlds are moving off to where
thier skills can be supported more luceratively (core areas).



>So, how simple is Grav technlogy?  I didn't know that we had developed
>it yet.  I assumed that any discussion of the technical difficulty of
>Grav would have to wait until we got it and found out how hard it was.
>            3
>Notice that the process for making reliably good steel took 2000+ years
>to perfect, BUT was an EXTREMELY SIMPLE process, once you know how.
>Notice that Fusion plants are so difficult that we haven't quite got one
>working yet, but the construction of a Tokamak (for instance) is simpler
>than an automobile engine.  Just bigger.

Grav technology may  be simple, but it's much more expesive than wheels.
(as the horse cart is than an auto). With the general finacial collapse that
would seem to be enatiled by the disruption of trade, and the general
malaise of war, and the fear about the future promoting depression
(as we see today with buyers being cautious) I might be happy
to give up my abaility to fly around the world in 20 minutes in my sleek
megacredit speeder and just buy a cheap lo-tech ground car.

Fusion plants raises another issue, which is that of the government
financing of hi-tech products. Industrail policy would avryu from world
to world, but probably be present in some form. But with budgets
becoming tight, the money that used to go into such hi-tech research
would go into more sustainable,  immediately practical technologies.


>
>>Finally, regarding Steve's point about high TL machinery suddenly
>>disappearing, I would have to agree with him.  The whole idea is
>ludicrous.
>>I'm sure there would be mountains of very high-tech novelties just lying
>>around.  Some of them might even work.  But just try to maintain them, or
>get
>>them repaired!  Does anyone know where there's a technician with Laser
>>Weapons-5 and Electronics-4?  Big $$$$$$$$.
>
>My microwave has lasted for seven years without maintenance.  My car
>seven years without any spare parts other than oil filters and brake
>shoes, and without maintenance that I couldn't do with the tools in the
>my trunk.  The only time this computer has been in the shop has been to
>add more memory and a better modem.  My father's Air-Conditioner has
>been chugging away for 14 years now with no maintenance except a new
>filter every year or so.

If the governement stops subsidizing the local fusion plant because it
can no longer afford to do so (or the knowhow has gone off-world) or
the spare parts arent being made, all your hi-tech gadgets will be useless.

The soviets are experinceing this now with their reactors (according to 
recent news reports). Their refurbishing old parts, but who knows
how long that will last.

BTW where are hi-tech, low water worlds getting their hydrogen?


>The US Navy's SSBNs have been operating for ~30 years.  There hasn't
>even been a factory making most of their major spares since 1972.  They
>swap equipment around from each other, and refurbish it in Navy shops.
>They've been doing that for 20 years now, and the boats still spend 250+
>days per year at sea.  Or so it was when I was on a boomer 5 years ago.

But our navy isn't undergoing a major financial crunch, and facing
a major military threat at the moment. Hard times would be a feedback
loop: the markets go down, the technology skips a beat, causing more
finacial instability and so on. 

>So why should TL15 equipment be MORE prone to failure than modern
>equipment.  After all, they should have fewer moving parts, better
>materials, beter manufacturing processes, better everything.  So why
>should they break down so fast?  After all, a world like Terra (1128)
>probably has 10,000,000,000 small fusion plants (in grav vehicles), as
>well as the grav generators in those vehicles.  I'm pretty sure we could
>keep 1,000,000,000 or so of those running with spare parts from the
>others.  Probably for 100 years or more.


I've always understood tech to be an average for the population.
Reducing the number of hi-tech items by 90% means only the wealthy
or the government then could have them. I imagine the governement would
do that in such perilous times (witness rationing during WWII).

Plus there's going to be a lot fewer wealthy, since I doubtmany of them
were hoarding hard currency, but had alot of paper (or silicon) assets.


>Notice that in 1919 Germany was in worse shape than most Imperial
>planets : total economic collapse was beginning, their industry was all
>in the hands of their enemies, and there was no external support to
>speak of.  20 years later, they had a MORE advanced technology than any
>of their neighbors (including the USA), and had built an industrial
>complex that allowed them to fight the USA and USSR for four long years
>till it was overcome.  And they din't even fully mobilize their industry
>for wartime production until 1944!  If they can do that, why should a
>world in the Imperium, with blueprints in hand, have a hard time
>duplicating their recovery?


Was all this technology in the hands of the average german or in
the military. There were no commercial jetliners for long after the
germans developed the jet. This is an interesting thread, though:
as worlds going through this diffculty might turn to such command
economy alternatives (i.e. Nazi autarky) to speed up relief.


I wanted to address another issue though, and that is the vilani
cultural influence, which must be prevalent to some extent throughout
the imperium in general. If the smart-sophonts have hightailed it out of the
dangerous areas, it would leave alot of people behind who wouldn't know
were to begin to understand a tech 15 blueprint, and who might not
want to when they could just slap together an oxcart (or run
a driveshaft out of their failed grav-vehicle).

Maybe the 5-level techdrop is too extreme, maybe it isn't extreme enough.
It would seem to be a good way to quantify the general chaos of the
hard times period. Remeber that the rich on the necounter tables always did
have +2 TL items, and the peasants -2 TL. (or therebaouts.)
I'm going to get hard times soo and give it a looksee. It sounds
interesting.


paul duggan
duggan@siam.org


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3574
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 92 12:55:20 EST
From: burt@ptltd.COM (Burton Choinski.)

Subject: Hard times

I don't have it (and am basically waiting for T3), so what I say may be
on the nose or a truckload of it.

I think the biggest hit of hard times is the loss of trade.  Take your
average world...

   B555555-7  (I can't think of the trade stuff offhand)

For the moment, assume that NO trade ever comes again.  The big crash.
End of game.  Now, the world has a decent atmosphere and water supply,
so it won't be doomed on those accounts (as would be, IMHO, the same
population in a B100555-7 situtation.  Even then, they barely have the
TL to maintain themselves, assuming they can make the components they need.)

Now look at the rest of it.  you have ~50000 people (the size of a large
US town) on a world with ~65% of the Earth's land surface.  If you assume
there is a decent cross-section of skills, they can probably maintain their
TL, or perhaps loose no more than 1.  If you assume they are all specialized
farmers and import technicians, they will probably drop to pre-industrial
levels.

"Hard-Timing" the imperium is obviously going to be a 3-step process for
each world.  "What if: all trade is cut off?"

   1) Does the population have to fight the environment in order to
      survive?

      If it does, then a certain TL is required to maintian it.  If you drop
      below this TL, the entire world goes belly up and you end up with
      a ghost world when contact is regained.

      If the world is generally habitable, the minimum TL will obviously be
      0 or 1.

   2) Resources? Does the world have the necessary material to maintain its
      TL?

      If not, then you will ses a decline in TL as material reserves are
      used up.  Imagine our world (TL8) if suddenly all our Oil went dry.
      Most likely we'd hold on for a while, but a majority of our society
      would drop to TL4 as fuel supplies run out.

      Note that if TL degredation occurs, see step 1.

   3) Population cross-section: is there enough varied manpower to maintain
      the knowledge base?

      If you have a varied skill base, assuming #2 above is not kicking in,
      you should be able to maintain your TL.  However, worlds that are
      highly specialized in one area and import techs to handle other
      areas are going to be screwed.

      
So what's the gist?  Mabye hard times should be used to clear out the
cruft of old traveller's world generation.

First off, any world with a population of 4 or less is highly suspect.
They are either a freshly planted colony, or a dying one.  In either case,
the loss of trade would most likely finish them off.  Population 5 is
the bare minimum I would say is self-sufficient, assuming no adverse
environmental conditions or resource problems.  I have seen at least one
world with a population of 10 stone-age barbarians.  If you try to tell me
that this world should have remained unchanged even through the time of
spinward marches without dying off, I'll slap you silly. :)

Second, some population/world size ratios are very bogus given some of the
TLs provided.  In my world generator program I had a correction algorthm based
on world land surface and TL.  The result was the maximum population
capable.   If Usable Land Index (ULI) equals Size+Size+(10-Hydro),
Then for every +1 change in ULI, increase the population maximum by +1.
Likewise for a decrease of 1, decrease population maximum.

Also, increase the maxmimum by +1 for every TL above 0.

If the world is an cold planet, subtract .176 from the total.  Ice worlds
subtract .477 from the total.  Hot worlds add .095 to the total.

Table of logs below:

   Code Value   Code Value   Code Value   Code Value   Code Value   Code Value
     0  -.477     2   .301     4   .602     6   .778     8   .903    10   1.00
     1   .000     3   .477     5   .699     7   .845     9   .954

For example, Earth has an ULI of (.903*2)+(.477) or 2.283.  Our example
world above has an ULI of (.699*2)+.699 or 2.097.  Within reason, it
has about the same area.  However, a Size 1, Hydro 0 world has an ULI of
1, so it's base maximum should be reduced by 1.

I figure a base maximum of 5 for an Earth sized planet for TL 0 
savages.  Your milage may vary.

Note to GDW: Please decrease the granularity in population codes!
a factor of 10 is a bit much -- How about a factor of "about 2"?

i.e. 0 = none
   1=1   2=2, 3=5, 4=10, 5=20, 6=50, 7=100, 8=200, 9=500, 10=1000,
  11=2000, 12=5000, 13=10,000 and so on?

Also, keep in mind some minimums of popualations.  Use some sort of
table-driven means rather then straight die values (i.e. 2d-2).

In my mind, minor worlds range from (old traveller) pop 5-8, major ones
from 9 and up.  At pop 4 you have the beginnings of a colony, or the end
of one.  3 and less should be some sort of dependant installation .

===============================================================================
[]  /     \    Postscript or BIOS,              Burton Choinski, QA Engineer []
[] ((     ))  we'll spark new life                       burt@vino.ptltd.com []
[] ( \   / )  into your system and                                           []
[]  ( \^/ )        make it fly!                                              []
[]   (( ))                                                                   []
[]    )^(   Phoenix Technologies, Ltd.  Cambridge, MA.                       []
===============================================================================

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3575
From: Mark F. Cook <markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.COM>
Subject: TML PBEM Redux?
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 92 22:45:18 PST

In TML Subject 3566, Cynthia Higginbotham writes:

> I am planning to run a private MegaTraveller play-by-email game. 
> Right now, I would like to know how many people would be interested in 
> joining in.

Cynthia, did you know that the TML PBEM is still going strong, with over
three dozen players?  When Richard decided to throw in the towel, Metlay
and I picked it up and ran with it.

> James and Richard, since you have coordinated this sort of thing
> before, I would appreciate any tips, suggestions, caveats, advice you
> might have.

James is still helping coordinating the TML PBEM.  Specifically, he handles
all the PBEM mail alias administration, which keeps player connectivity at
a pleasantly high level and significantly reduces the amount of bookkeeping
required by us as Referees. 

> By private, I *think* that I mean "handling things the same way the
> Richard's PBEM handled it", but I'm not sure.  What I mean is that
> player turns would be sent to me, and my responses sent back to them via
> e-mail, not posted to the TML for public view.  Am I correct in
> believing that that is the way Richard handled it?

Close.  Actually, once the aliases were created, the players no longer
have to maintain their own, individual lists of PBEM E-mail addresses.
If a player wants to make public move, they just send it to pbemall.
If they only want their move to go to the characters aboard a specific
ship (the Paladin, for example), they just mail to pbempaladin.  All
moves (public and private) get archived automatically.  Then, at the
cut-off point for a turn, the referee just copies the archive, edits
and formats it, and posts the result to all the players and to the TML.

Private is a good word for the PBEM, but 'closed' would be more accurate.
The current TML PBEM is a 'closed' game, in that new players need referee
approval to join.  People who are on the waiting list to join, or who
just want to eavesdrop, can request to be added to the pbemlisteners alias.

The current players will be starting the '92 season with opening moves
next week.  The first official turn of the year (Turn 92.00) will be
posted to the TML, in 3 parts, next Monday, February 3rd.

Later,
			"In the PBEM these days, it's hard to tell
			 whether 'RJ' is a reference to 'Richard
			 Johnson' or to 'Refrigerated Journalist'!"
					- Anonymous PBEM member
	- Mark F. Cook
	  (Somewhere coreward of Storm, in Reaver's Deep)

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3576
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 92 09:39:49 -0500
From: hayes@ll.mit.edu (Tony Hayes)
Subject: Re: Games for Sale


I'm sorry, I missed your name/email address and as fate would have it, I
am now in contact with someone looking for Lost Worlds books.  If my
poor memory serves, you listed some.  If you could send me you email
address, I could forward to the interested party and then it would be up
to him to contact you.

Thanks

Tony


     T.L.Hayes                        |       hayes@ll.mit.edu
     MIT/Lincoln Laboratory           |           - or -
     Lexington, MA                    |  al646@cleveland.Freenet.Edu
     
     Got an AK-47 for his best friend, business the American way.
 	      -  Queensryche

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
*****************

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maintained by James Perkins, traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed Jan 29 21:00:42 PST 1992
From: traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com (TML Administrator)
Subject: TML Bundle #290: Table of Contents

-AMN- --Date--- --Sender--------- --Subject-----------------------------------
3577  28-Jan-92 KELLOGG@ducvax.au Flight control systems on alien spacecraft <<
3578  28-Jan-92 bonnevil@stolaf.e More Economic Information << Here's some more
3579  28-Jan-92 richard@agora.rai Re: (3566) Traveller PBEM proposal << :I am p
3580  28-Jan-92 bgillesp@lonestar Local Con (US,Mass) GDW attendance << I just 
3581  28-Jan-92 Steve_Higginbotha all sorts of things... << Arthur Greene write
3582  27-Jan-92 A_COPEAB@CCSVAX.S Re: (3439) Traveller to GURPS << Here are the
3583  28-Jan-92 KELLOGG@ducvax.au A Challenge To You All |-} << Bertil's idea o
3584  28-Jan-92 Hans Rancke-Madse After Hard Times << Steve Higginbotham writes

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3577
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1992 09:45 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: Flight control systems on alien spacecraft

Here's some ideas I've been kicking around.

Question:  Just how do the different alien races design their
control panels.  We kinda take it for granted that they are
different, but just how different are they?  For simplicity's
sake I just took a look at pilot stations.

SOLOMANI	(start off simple right?)
	Solomani (and most Imperial) flight controls generally
consist of stick, throttle, and rudder pedals.  The stick is
usually mounted in the center of the console, but is sometimes on
the left side, while the right hand generally controls the
throttle.  This allows the co-pilot or navigator (generally
seated on the right) to be able to reach the throttle.  If the
pilot were incapacitated, the co-pilot can easily take control. 
If the stick is on the left side, it and the throttle are mounted
in the arms of the acceleration couch.  This allows the pilot to
rest his arms on the chair.  This can be nice when you don't have
inertial compensators working.
	On most ships, especially fighters, all combat funtions are
mounted on the stick and throttle.  This allows a pilot to
conduct all combat operations without having to move his hands to
different controls.  This design philosophy is known as HOTAS. 
(Hands On Throttle And Stick)
	Darrians tend to use Solomani control design philosophy,
though with a greater emphisis on center mounted sticks.  This is
because of the high proportion of ambidextrousness and left
handedness in Darrian gene pools.

VILANI
	Vilani controls are a bit more automated.  Auto pilots tend
to be a bit more sophisticated (and are heavily relied on)  The
control lay out is on the clumsy side.  Engineers opted for a
single design to ease training of pilots and to avoid their
having to study their ship to understand what is going on.  Thus
the same control panel exists on the Vilani Fat Trader as exists
on their most sophisticated fighters.  The compromise design is
good, but any compromise in engineering tends to lessen
performance.
	Vilani attitude controls look like a cross bettween a
control yoke and motorcycle handle bars.  Rudder pedals are not
present as they are in Solomani designs, and yaw control is
linked to the handle bars.  The bars control yaw in a similar
manner to motorcycle bars.  (This makes a cross controlled 'slip'
maneuver somewhat more difficult in Vilani aircraft)  But it
simplifies the controls for most normal flights.  The throttle is
mounted on the left handle bar as if it were a motorcycle.

ZHODANI
	Almost all Zhodani pilots come from the noble ranks.  Flight
controls for their ships are open for flicking.  Thus the psi-
trained Zhodani pilot may change the ship's attitude, throttle
settings, and weapons by flicking.  Special safe guards are in
place to prevent outside psionic interference in the piloting of
the ship.  Up to and including a psi-shield surrounding the
pilot's station.  This is demonstrated in the Shivva class patrol
frigate and her fighters.  The fighter pilots are open to
telepathic contact from their flight controller, but the flight
controller can not affect flight controls of the fighter.
	There also exist manual controls for all craft.  Not all
pilots are nobles.  The enlisted pilots use the manual controls. 
Also proles operating grav vehicles and the like have a need for
manual controls.  While one would think that manual flight
controls would be of lesser quality because of the depencance on
psi-controls, this is far from the truth.  With their wealth of
insight into the human mind, data presentation among the Zhodani
is a fine art.  Screens with flight data are very well presented
in such a manner so as not to swamp the pilot with data. 
However, manual controls do tend to recieve secondary attention
in Zhodani cockpit design.
	Controls are generally mounted on the arms of the flight
acceleration couch.  The stick is generally mounted on the left,
and the throttle on the right.  Often times, with a Psionic pilot
in command, the controls are stowed inside the chair arms and,
with a press of a switch, can be deployed in emergencies.
	Yaw control is subsumed into the stick in a rotational
manner.  Turn the stick to the right and the ship yaws right. 
This last is a reflection of how manual flight controls are
considered secondary.

VARGR
	Vargr flight controls do not follow general lines making it
difficult to generalize.  But, their control systems tend to be
similar to human designs at least where hands are concerned. 
Their degitigrade stance makes their foot controls quite
different.  Rudder pedals are rare, and yaw control tends to be
absorbed into the stick as Vilani and Zhodani designs.
	Aslan control systems are sometimes copied by Vargr.

ASLAN
	Aslan flight controls are a set of half gloves set into the
arms of the acceleration couch.  They look somewhat like large
balls on the ends of the chair arms.  The hand is placed atop the
ball in deep indentations in it for the hand.  (Picture a big wax
ball with a hole the shape of your hand melted into it.)  (Rather
like Hiver controls with deeper indendations)
	This design meshes with the Aslan philosophy that the ship
is but an extension of the pilot.  The 'gloves' make the ship
part of him.  The ship follows the motion of the hand.  The
extension of the dew-claw fires the ships weapons on ship's where
the pilot is in control of the guns.  A similar control is for
the aiming and firing of ship's weapons.
	Attitude control is controlled by both hands on separate
controls.  With roll and pitch on one hand and yaw on the other. 
Throttle control is in foot pedals.

DROYNE
	Droyne controls are one of the most unusual.  Attitude
controls are mounted beside the pilot.  They are low level infra-
red sensors that sense the position of the pilot's wings and
tail.  Though the Droyne generally have great difficulty in
flying, they do still possess the equipment for rudimentary
flight, and the instincts to do so(though buried).  To raise the
nose of the ship, the pilot would increase the angle of attack of
his wings.  The sensors see the change in wing angle and perform
the maneuver.  If the pilot raises his right wing, the ship will
bank left, and so on.
	Throttle controls are more conventional:  a lever mounted in
the center of the panel.
	The Ael Yael, while unable to build ships will commonly
adapt control panels to this type of configuration.


HIVER
	The Hiver controls are balls mounted with control studs. 
This is the form best suited 'ergonomically` to their limbs. 
Hiver controls are very difficult for anyone but a hiver to
operate.  Thus, many of their ships employ dual control panels,
to allow for a member race to use them.  The Federation Member
control panels are similar to Aslan designs, though the
indentation in the control globes is not so deep as the Aslan
half gloves.  This arrangement allows the hiver better control
than he would mangage with a Solomani design.

K'KREE
	The K'Kree have probably the most bazarre arrangement of
attitude control.  The pilot lies in a couch arrangement with his
four hooves touching the floor.  By leaning in one direction or
another, the ship's attitude is changed.  It looks somthing like
flying a hang glider.  To roll left, lean left.  To lower the
nose:  lean forward.  To pull up:  lean back.  Yaw control is by
twisting the body to the right or left.  Throttle control is by
hand levers.
	The leaning method of attitude control dates back to the
earliest K'kree experiments in flight.  Their earliest gliders
used this method of steering, then their primitive aircraft.
After that, it was too entrenched in K'kree engineering
philosophy to ever change.

Mr. Scott

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3578
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 92 10:19:05 CST
From: bonnevil@stolaf.edu (Steven Bonneville)
Subject: More Economic Information

Here's some more comparisons based on Wildstar's data....

Gross Imperial Product: 219,474,958,700,000,000 Cr
Imperial Population:    16,731,817,153,000 sophont/citizens
Total Systems:          10,497 star systems

Avg. System Population: 1,593,961,813 sophont/citizens
GIP per system:         20,908,351,000,000 Cr
GIP per capita:         13,117 Cr    (note: not the same as avg. income)

Minimum Annual Spending to Maintain Apparent SocSt:
F (Duke)             45,000 Cr
A (Max. "Common")    30,000 Cr
7 ("Average")        21,000 Cr
5 ("Low Influence")  15,000 Cr
4                    12,000 Cr
2 (Min. Generation)   6,000 Cr

Annual Salaries for a Typical Ship's Crew:
Position       Skills/Rank                "Old" Traveller    MegaTraveller
- -------------  -----------                ---------------    -------------
Command Pilot  Pilot-2, Leader-2, Rank 5     79,200           42,000
Navigator      Navig-2, Leader-2, Rank 4     66,000           33,600
Engineer       Engrg-2, Rank 4               52,800           28,800
Doctor         Medical-3                     43,200           18,000
Steward        Steward-2                     26,400           12,000
Gunner         Gunnery-2                     13,200            7,200
Medic          Medical-1                     36,000            6,000
Troops/Frozen  (unskilled)                   12,000            6,000

Price of a family ground car:  Cr 3500.
Price of a economy utility flier (Trelea, TD #20):  Cr 18,750.

Commentary:
   Gee, it looks like ship crews have taken a bit of a pay cut since the 5th
Frontier War! :)  To start with, I can't believe how badly broken the crew
salary rules are for MegaT.  A ship's medic can't even maintain SocSt 2 on
that salary.  Besides that, who would be foolish enough to put the lives of
frozen crew in the hands of a medic who knows darn well that they are 
getting paid just as much as he is just to stay in hibernation?
   The other idea I had involved the effects of _Hard Times_.  Has anybody
tried to figure out how bad the damage is over a given area, say a subsector?
How many people get killed?  How far does the GPP fall?  How far does the
average tech level fall?  I don't have _Hard Times_, but I've been hearing
comments about HiPop planets losing a population digit -- we're talking about
*billions* of sentient beings here!  This is the sort of blow that it is
hard to recover from, even in an intact Imperium.
   How much cooperation was there between Imperial planets even before 
everything fell to pieces?  I get the idea that in many cases neighboring
worlds didn't do all that much to help each other out.  There always seemed
to be worlds in dire straits near powerful, hi-tech worlds that just didn't
seem to lift a finger to help.  Might the Imperium have discouraged local
"Good Samaritans"?
   In other words, we've looked at hard numbers for the Imperium before
the Rebellion, but we haven't yet looked at numbers for the Imperial worlds
after a region broke up (according to _Hard Times_ anyway).  It might be
interesting to see how bad it is over, say, a subsector.
 
- --Steve
<bonnevil@stolaf.edu>


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3579
From: richard@agora.rain.COM (Richard Johnson)
Subject: Re: (3566) Traveller PBEM proposal
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 92 8:29:03 EST


:I am planning to run a private MegaTraveller play-by-email game. 
....
:James and Richard, since you have coordinated this sort of thing
:before, I would appreciate any tips, suggestions, caveats, advice you
:might have.  Tentatively, following the lead of a very good friend of
:mine who runs a play-by-surface-mail fantasy rpg, I intend to (a) NOT
:run things at the tactical level (i.e., we won't get tied up going
:blow-by-blow over the mail), (b) have a multi-generational campaign, and
:(c) allow the players to be movers & shakers if it happens to work out
:that way.  

I agree completely with all of the above.  My primary rule has been
to let the players tell their characters to (try to) do anything
the player can thinkd of.  How it works out is the GM territory, though.

My second rule has been to try to remain impartial (like the "real")
universe, rather than adversarial. 

My third rule is "don't give the GM ideas."  Metlay says it's his
first. :=)

Finally, I guess, don't be a slave to the game clock.  See what is happening,
and try to have it make sense in some kind of time frame, rather than
sticking to the rules.


:By private, I *think* that I mean "handling things the same way the
:Richard's PBEM handled it", but I'm not sure.  What I mean is that
:player turns would be sent to me, and my responses sent back to them via
:e-mail, not posted to the TML for public view.  Am I correct in
:believing that that is the way Richard handled it?  However, if most
:players agree, and TML readers are interested, I would post a synopsis
:of current events in the PBEM to the TML for all to read.  Opinions,
:anyone?

I started out trying this "double blind" approach, in which players
would not know whose character was whose.  You might be able to do it,
if you keep the number of players really small (six or less?).  I found
I couldn't handle the volume because of mail delays, schedule problems,
people talking ot each other "above board" i.e. person-to-person anyway,
etc.   So I let it open up to direct character-to-character mailings,
on the proviso I got a copy.  (I didn't always, BTW.)

So it's a possibility, but hard to do, and it messes with your real life.

I found TMLers are ALWAYS interested in a synopsis of what's happening
in various games, so by all means post.

Finally, I found a totally different kind of satisfaction and gratification
running the PBEM than I do with table-top adventures.  It's truly NEAT
to have people from all over the world get to know each other, to have
fun together, and to create together.  I hope you enjoy it as much.
If you want any other help, just ask.
- -- 
Richard Johnson     richard@agora.rain.com
"We've learned a great deal about how to keep the American people
pacified."   Ex-CIA director William Colby after the Church hearings

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3580
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 92 12:18:02 EST
From: bgillesp@lonestar.Prime.COM (Brian Gillespie)
Subject: Local Con (US,Mass) GDW attendance

I just found out about this gaming convention coming up in February
and since I see that GDW representatives will be running some events
I thought people might be interested.

I have no connection with this Con, nor have I previously attended
this Con.  I plan on attending this year.

INFO from the Con flyer(pamphlet).

TOTAL CONFUSION VI
P.O. Box 1463
Worcester, MA  01607
Phone: (508) 987-1530

February 21st, 22nd & 23rd 1992

"Over 200 scheduled events, Roleplaying, Miniatures, and Board
Games.  Special events will be our Miniatures Painting and Costume
Contest, Japanimation as well as special seminars on gaming related
issues. 
....
The preregistration dead-line is February 15, 1992.
...."


Location:
	The Best Western Royal Plaza
	   Hotel and Trade Center
	 181 Boston Post Road West
	  Marlborough, MA   01752
	      (508) 460-0700


GDW representatives are listed as running the following events:
	Dark Conspiracy 	(3 timeslots scheduled)
	Twilight: 2000 		(3 timeslots scheduled)
	Mega Traveler 		(3 timeslots scheduled)
	Space 1889 		(2 timeslots scheduled)
	Traveler 2300 		(2 timeslots scheduled)
	Cadillacs and Dinosaurs	(2 timeslots scheduled)

Most events listed as being run by GDW reps have no description of
the scenario to be run.

I would recommend contacting the Con sponsors for a flyer.

If you have questions that just can't wait for a flyer,
send me email and I'll try to help.

Brian

bgillesp@lonestar.prime.com
#include <std_disclaimer.h>

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3581
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 92 10:30:46 CST
From: Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US (Steve Higginbotham)
Subject: all sorts of things...

Arthur Greene writes:
 
>                                             ... and in this case
>there are no serious iron or reserves with which to build local
>replacements. What I'm trying to say is that many planets don't have
>the industrial base to maintain themselves without interstellar trade.
 
They sure won't, but then, most of them can't support themselves WITH
interstellar trade.  The Ireland you describe would have no source of
Imperial credits to buy anything from offworld (in standard MT).
As to the question of lack of iron/nickel/metals in general that Ireland
has, most PLANETS have whole solar systems attached.  Many have ateroid
belts out there.  As was pointed out by Pournelle years ago, ONE medium
sized asteroid has more metal than the entire world's output for any
year in history.  Lack of raw materials should never be a problem.
 
>In any case, I'm sort of puzzled by these pirates. Why have they such
>crummy ships (and also why don't the splinters of the Imperium go and
>take them out)? 
 
>What do all these pirates live on?
 
That's a very good question, which we have been asking ourselves since
we got hold of Hard Times.  (actually, I have been wondering since MT
came out, as MT made it MUCH harder to build a ship which could have a
real chance of being an effective pirate)
 
 
George William Herbert:
 
>    I'm in the process of coming up with a correction "diff" (new
>design tables et. al.) to fix the problems.  The only thing I don't
>know is wether it's worth it to include the real-world delta-V formula
>or not (delV = G * Isp * ln(Mr) ... ).  The simple solution is to leave
>his rules in place and fix the engines, but I'm not sure that the
>result would be very close to real-world...
 
So am I.  Whose rules in place?
 
>    BTW, one complaint that Steve had isn't valid; there is after all
>a good reason for using lift assisted launch vehicles... reusability.
>Recovering most rocket-type launch vehicles is impossible.  Not so with
>a LALV.
>    Note that I simply reject any presumption that it's possible to 
>reuse normal rockets.  In my free time I design some of them, so I know
>much better 8-)
 
A rocket that rides down on it's jet can't be made reusable? Don't be
ridiculous!  Yes, I studied aerospace engineering, too.  While building
a realworld rocket HERE that can do that is pushing the limits of
reality, MOST Imperial worlds are considerably smaller than Terra, with
correspondingly lower surface G.  The mass-ratios required for
orbit-powered deorbit are MUCH more reasonable than here.
BTW, my beef with the LALV was NOT the concept.  It was the rules that
made the LALV less functional than a rocket.  Notice that under those
rules, I could build a rocket that could do a powered orbit-powered
deorbit with less fuel (by a factor of 5-7) than a LALV would require
just to get UP, much less back down. (GAWD, another run-on sentence
breaks free!)
 
>    Besides which, once we get scramjets properly in the design
>sequence, they have an actual Isp of as high as 1350 or so, three times
>that of a shuttle main engine.  See?  There _are_ good reasons... 8-)
 
Yes, I know about them. Hopefully, they'll have a specific impulse
higher than that within a few years after introduction.  Notice my
attempt to salvage the idea without rewriting the entire set of Low Tech
Spacecraft rules.
 
Paul Dugan :
 
>Would the IDPs be coming through with the piracy and war that is
>suppossed to be wreaking such havoc? Were these things being sent out
>for free? (note:I haven't yet aquired Hard Times, so I may be speaking
>from considerable ignorance)
 
Indications were that they were passed out for free, and that every
world in the Imperium had them in their databases.  Who cares whether
they still come in?  You already got the ones for TL5-15!
 
>The Soviets did have massive industial plants though- I don't think
>it's fair to call them a third-world nation. They fielded not just
>nukes, but a navy, submarines, tanks, etc, and had a burgeoning space
>program.
>Admeittedly, they havn't forgetten any of that stuff yet. But maybe
>all the smart-guys on the hi-tech worlds are moving off to where
>thier skills can be supported more luceratively (core areas).
 
It takes more than an army and navy to be a superpower.  Standard of
living might be nice, too.  ANd they STILL have all those things, as you
say.   USSR 70+ years and counting / Imperium dead after 5- years???
And I am sure that the number of people who will be willing to move away
from their homeworlds are not appreciably greater than the number of
people today who leave their home countries to seek better
opportunities.  Some do, for sure, but if they all did, then Germany
would have been depopulated after WW2.  VERY few people can pull up
their roots and walk away from everything they've ever known for the
CHANCE of better times elsewhere.  Most will stay and work for better
times here.
 
>Grav technology may  be simple, but it's much more expesive than
>wheels. (as the horse cart is than an auto). With the general finacial
>collapse that would seem to be enatiled by the disruption of trade, and
>the general malaise of war, and the fear about the future promoting
>depression (as we see today with buyers being cautious) I might be
>happy to give up my abaility to fly around the world in 20 minutes in
>my sleek megacredit speeder and just buy a cheap lo-tech ground car.
 
So, how much less does it cost to buy the wheel from an oxcart in the
USA today than it does to buy a tire for your automobile?  Wheels are
cheaper if you have a wheel factory, but if all your factories produce
Grav modules, wheels are going to be EXPENSIVE imports.  Cynthia has
designed several Grav vehicles that retail for about the same as a
modern automobile (use fuel cells and solar panels, and watch the price
of your speeder plummet!).  I doubt that wheeled vehicles would be
competitive.  Especially given the detail everyone else (GDW included)
seems to overlook.  NO ROADS!   The wheeled vehicle economy will never
work without roads for them to drive on (yes, four wheel drive offroad
vehicles exist - have you ever seen a four-wheel drive off-road
18wheeler?)  The roads would cost FAR more (llok at how much the USA
spends on them) than the grav vehicle factory ever could.
 
>Fusion plants raises another issue, which is that of the government
>financing of hi-tech products. Industrail policy would avryu from world
>to world, but probably be present in some form. But with budgets
>becoming tight, the money that used to go into such hi-tech research
>would go into more sustainable,  immediately practical technologies.
 
Actually, given MT rules set, fusion plants are one of the most
practical ways of getting energy.  Again, tooling up to build the
alternatives costs money (lots of it).  If you have to have money,
anyway, build something that is better than obsolete junk.
 
>If the governement stops subsidizing the local fusion plant because it
>can no longer afford to do so (or the knowhow has gone off-world) or
>the spare parts arent being made, all your hi-tech gadgets will be
>useless.
 
Why should the government subsidize local fusion plants?  They cost
somewhere in the range of 33Cr per Kw.  In the USA, power plants of all
types cost in the neighborhood of $1000 per KW.
 
>The soviets are experinceing this now with their reactors (according to
>recent news reports). Their refurbishing old parts, but who knows
>how long that will last.
 
Probably forever, or until teh fuel cores burn out.  No components of a
nuclear plant are all that hard to make, if you have basic machine
tools.
 
>BTW where are hi-tech, low water worlds getting their hydrogen?
 
Probably from a moon (theirs, or another planet insystem's) with ice. 
Or from a carbonaceous-chrondite asteroid.  A 3Km ateroid would ahve
about 500,000,000 tons of hydrogen in it.  That could keep a terawatt
worth of fusion plants running for maybe 1500 years, even a MT's abysmal
efficiencies.
 
>But our navy isn't undergoing a major financial crunch, and facing
>a major military threat at the moment. Hard times would be a feedback
>loop: the markets go down, the technology skips a beat, causing more
>finacial instability and so on. 
 
Neither are most of theirs.  And why didn't this happen in the
Depression, if it so likely?
 
>I've always understood tech to be an average for the population.
>Reducing the number of hi-tech items by 90% means only the wealthy
>or the government then could have them. I imagine the governement would
>do that in such perilous times (witness rationing during WWII).
>
>Plus there's going to be a lot fewer wealthy, since I doubtmany of them
>were hoarding hard currency, but had alot of paper (or silicon) assets.
 
Check out World Builder's Handbook for guidelines on who has the
High-Tech.  In most TL15 worlds, most people would be living at TL14 (or
perhaps TL13).  Which is still a whole lot higher than TL10!  Even if
90% of it evaporated overnight, they probably could rebuild all of it in
5 years.
And why should you stop being wealthy because the Stock Market crashed? 
As Sam Walton said after losing $500,000,000 in the Stock Market
collapse a few years ago, "it was paper yesterday, it's still paper
today."
If you own a factory, it won't evaporate just because the Stock Market
does.  If you have a factory, and no cash, BARTER!  Your people will
work for room and board if times are that bad, and you can provide them
by trading the products of your factories for the products of other
people's factories.
 
>Was all this technology in the hands of the average german or in
>the military. There were no commercial jetliners for long after the
>germans developed the jet. This is an interesting thread, though:
>as worlds going through this diffculty might turn to such command
>economy alternatives (i.e. Nazi autarky) to speed up relief.
 
Good point.  Though notice the WBH again.  Most of the state-of-the-art
is in the hands of the elite on most worlds anyway.  But Germany's
general TL was higher in 1939 than in 1919, in any case.  Remember the
Volkswagon?  Remember the Sanger antipodal bomber?
And as I said on a post this past AM, we (Cynthia and I) expect to see a
LOT of Htlers and Stalins and Roosevelts in the next few years of the
Imperium.
 
>I wanted to address another issue though, and that is the vilani
>cultural influence, which must be prevalent to some extent throughout
>the imperium in general. If the smart-sophonts have hightailed it out
>of the dangerous areas, it would leave alot of people behind who
>wouldn't know were to begin to understand a tech 15 blueprint, and who
>might not want to when they could just slap together an oxcart (or run
>a driveshaft out of their failed grav-vehicle).
 
I doubt that the smart sophonts did, but the Vilani heritage CANNOT be
that strong, since the same problem existed in teh Long Night.  Plenty
of time for evolution to wipe out that particular mind-set.  Note the
troubles Vland has had in reinstating it even in their own sector.
 
And if it were common, then the lads left behind would just know how to
do one thing, which WILL NOT BE how to build wheeled vehicles!  They are
far more likely to have cookbook knowledge of Grav engineering than of
wheeled vehicle design (which they haven't used in 11,000 years).
 
>Maybe the 5-level techdrop is too extreme, maybe it isn't extreme
>enough.
>It would seem to be a good way to quantify the general chaos of the
>hard times period. Remeber that the rich on the necounter tables always
>did
>have +2 TL items, and the peasants -2 TL. (or therebaouts.)
>I'm going to get hard times soo and give it a looksee. It sounds
>interesting.
 
The five Tl drop is ludicrous. The assumption that such a drop would
last for more than a VERY short period is even more ludicrous.
HOWEVER, the MOST LUDICROUS THING TRAVELLER (in any incarnation) HAS
EVER DONE IS TO ASSUME THAT "PEASANTS" WILL BE COMMON IN THE
IMPERIUM!!!!!!!!

- -- Via DLG Pro v0.985b

Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US

I have learned to use the word "impossible" with the greatest caution.
                                    --W. von Braun

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3582
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1992 9:46:51 -0600 (CST)
From: A_COPEAB@CCSVAX.SFASU.EDU (Brandon Cope)
Subject: Re: (3439) Traveller to GURPS 

Here are the conversion notes for Traveller to GURPS, for the archives.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

What follows are some fairly straightforward conversion rules for
basic Traveller (either books 1,2,3, or _The_Traveller_Book_) to GURPS, 
mainly for characters:

Stats:
- ------

Strength = strength +3
Dexterity = dexterity +3
Intelligence = intelligence +3
Health = endurance +3

If you feel such numbers are too low, use either the stat +3 or (stat*1.5)
[rounded up], whichever is higher

see below for education and social standing

Skills:
- -------
Level zero gives the skill at whatever level a half point would give
Level one in a skill equals the skill at (stat) 
Level two in a skill equals the skill at (stat) +1
Level three in a skill equals the skill at (stat) +2
and so on...

For Traveller skills that encompass multiple GURPS skills, each
skill is gained at the indicated level, with some exceptions.
Medical skill does not grant any other skills except first-aid
until it reaches level 3, when Diagnosis and Surgery become available
at two levels lower than the medical skill. Jack-of-all-trades gives
4 skill points per level to the character's education pool (see below), 
or, optionally, it reduces all stat defaults by 1 (but no better than
a -2 penalty) per level of J-O-T. Most weapon skills are fairly 
explanatory. However, revolver, auto-pistol, and body pistol are all
Guns(Pistol), rifle and carbine are Guns(Rifle), blade and dagger are
Knife, sword is Shortsword, cutlass is Broadsword, broadsword is
Two-Handed Sword, and foil is Fencing. A character with skill in the foil
who also has blade or dagger skill may take the Main Gauche skill
(see Swashbucklers or Martial Arts) rather than Knife. A character with
brawling may take the GURPS Brawling at the appropriate level, or take
either Judo or Karate at skill-2. For starship combat, the areas
within Gunnery skill are Lasers, Missiles, and Sandcasters. Ship's Boat
is Piloting(small craft or starfighter), and pilot is Piloting(starship).
Also, it is recommended that Piloting gets the same IQ bonuses as does Guns, 
though this is optional. Electronics and Mechanical must be broken down 
into specialities. Engineering includes Mechanic(Warp/Hyper/Jumpdrives), 
Mechanic(Starship drives), and Mechanic (storage batteries/capacitors). 
Liason is roughly the same as Savior-Faire.

Also, every character has a number of 'free' points equal to their
Traveller education to spend on skills. These points should be used on
general skills that Traveller does not include (Chemistry, Biology,
Area Knowledge, Cooking, etc) and that the character should logically
have. They may also be used to improve a character's intelligence
(see below for details).

Optionally (and especially if the character was made under the older
Traveller rules), you may want to allow the character to add 4 points
of skill for every term served. Unlike points from education, these
points may be used for any skill that the character could have reasonably
learned in their service. Also, they may be used to increase a character's
stats, but at a cost penalty of double normal cost (so going from IQ 10 to
11 would cost 20, not 10, points). Points gained from time in service may
also be used for Contacts, Allies, Patrons, or Favors.

Advantages and disadvantages:
- -----------------------------
Characters with a social standing over 7 recieve one level of
Status per two points over. A character with a SS of 5 or less has
Status -1. A SS of 3 or less also should have a Social Stigma.
Characters, regardless of the rank they may have achieved while in
a service, do not have to pay for the (Military) Rank, unless they
still hold such rank (such as being in the reserves, etc).
Characters who get a ship as a mustering out benefit must pay for
a 10 point Unusual Background or (in the case of scouts) as the 
IISS as a patron (though the scout does own them a small duty).
The Traveller Aid Society counts as a 10 point Patron (of sorts).
A character that failed his survival roll may take an appropriate
disadvantage (one arm, one eye, severe phobia, etc.). Reputation,
good or bad, may be assigned as needs be. Enemies and allies 
depend on the character's prior play (if any). If such allies or
reputation was gained while in service, it must be purchased with the
points from terms served.

Characters may take additional advantages or disadvantages, but the total 
value of these should not be higher than 0. Also, such advantages and 
disadvantages should be appropriate to the character, his/her background, 
and race (for example, a droyne would have Winged Flight (30pts) and Night 
Vision (10pts), but it also has Hollow Bones (-20pts)), though *racial* 
advantages and disadvantages do not have to balance (GM's call).

If you use J-O-T to reduce stat defaults, count it as a 5 point advantage
per level.

Weapons:
- --------
Most firearms convert over fairly easily. In general, use an appropriate
weapon from GURPS for the Traveller weapon (though remember that lasers
use bulky power packs). Some guidelines (using those in _The_Traveller_
Book_) using weapons in GURPS Basic Set, 3rd edition:
	body pistol: walther ppk *	automatic pistol: browning HP
	revolver: s&w m10 .38-cal	carbine: semi-auto m-16
	rifle: semi-auto FN-FAL		auto rifle: fully-auto FN-FAL
	shotgun: rem m870 (10 shot)	blade: large knife
	dagger: small knife		foil: rapier
	cutlass: broadsword		sword: short sword
	broadsword: two-handed sword	bayonet: small knife/spear
	cudgel: club			
	laser rifle: as listed, but 4d dam, and shots 100 from 10lb pack
	laser carbine: as laser rifle, but 3d dam, 2/3 range, and 50 shots
		from a 5lb powerpack
	* -- this version is almost entirely made of plastic, including
	the ammunition; range and damage are 1/2 normal

Those intrested in converting weapons from Book 4: Mercenary will
need to do their own work. GURPS High-Tech and Ultra-Tech (tech levels
6-9) would be very useful. I also have a file of near-future, SF, and
historic weapons for use in GURPS (TL5-8, numbering about 30) if you may 
be intrested (a_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu).

Armor:
- ------
The following PD and DR should be used:
	jack: PD 2 DR 2		mesh: PD 3 DR 4 (PD 0 DR 1 vs impailing)
	cloth: PD 4 DR 12	reflect: none (PD 6 vs lasers)
	ablat: PD 2 DR 3 (PD 5 vs lasers)
	vacc suit: PD 4 DR 12
	combat armor/battle dress: PD 6 DR 30


Starting Money:
- ---------------
Because of the extremes that a character can start with, this is
difficult to evaluate. Basically, consider an average wealth level
to be Cr 4000. This may be upped or lowered as the GM sees fit.
Any Wealth advantage or disadvantage should be based off this value.

Character Points:
- -----------------
In general, do not try to force characters into point totals. If, after
converting characters, there is a large difference in point totals (and
at the GM's option) characters more than 50 points under the highest
totalled character may be given points to get them up to within 50 points.
Distribution of points is up to the GM, and should not be used for stats
or skills.

General Tech Level:
- -------------------
If bringing Traveller characters into a GURPS Space campaign, consider
skills to be Tech Level 9-10. If you are converting a Traveller campaign
to GURPS rules, it is strongly advised that you keep the Traveller tech 
levels as-is. Up to TL7, both scales are similar. After that, every two
Traveller tech levels ups the GURPS tech level by one (ex. Traveller TL15
is roughly GURPS TL11).

Starships:
- ----------
In a Traveller universe, I would recommend keeping Traveller ships as-is, 
unless you really feel like trying to rebuild every ship. If the Traveller 
characters are being transplanted into another universe (ie, different 
campaign background), use the GURPS Space rules.

Starship Combat:
- ----------------
If you use Traveller ships, and want to use the fast starship combat
system in GURPS Space:
	(1) Traveller ships have an armor DF of 0; every 3% of the hull
	dedicated to armor gives DF 1 (or divide High Guard armor value by 3)
	(2) Multiply the ships's tonnage by 13.5 to get its cubic yard
	displacement (it isn't exact, but...).
	(3) Traveller lasers are considered heavy lasers and the missiles
	are heavy missiles
	(4) Sandcasters are used in defensive fire; they are treated like
	anti-missile lasers versus missiles; against lasers, roll to-hit --
	for each point gunner skill is made by, reduce the incoming laser
	firepower by 10%, plus 10% (but never to less than 10%, unless a
	critical success is rolled).

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3583
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1992 12:01 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: A Challenge To You All  |-}

Bertil's idea of the planet of left shoes and egg spoons gave me an idea...

I am issuing a challenge...

I hereby challenge all members of the TML to come up with a scenario more
likely to lead to the collapse of the Imperium than the junk GDW has been
coming out with...

Below are a few ideas...

Here's one I stole from The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy

The Shoe Event Horizon...
Everyone in the Imerium is so depressed they are all looking down.  They
notice their shoes.  To cheer themselves up they buy new pairs.  Now, with
everybody buying more shoes, the shoe makers reinvest their money into more
production.  More shoes:  More shoe shops.  But if everyone has new shoes,
no one will buy more, thus the shoe shops have to regain their money by
introducing fashions where shoes are made badly so that they fall apart.
With shoes lasting only a short time and fashions changing constatnly, everyone
buys more shoes.  More shoes:  More Shoe shops.
	The cycle goes round and round until you reach the Shoe Event Horizon.
The whole economy overbalances.  It becomes economically impossible to open any
kind of store other than a shoe store.  These existing shoe stores sell shoes
that no one can wear.  The result:  Collapse, Famine, Ruin.
	Survivors (if any) eventually evolve into birds and never put their
feet on the ground again.


Ok, here's my original contribution:

Dulinor releases his secret weapon on Core...

A million ton cargo ship sneaks through Cores defences and comes in on a
Kamikazie run headed straight at the planet.

Valiantly, Lucan's SDB's swarm over the ship and destroy it, but not before it
releases it's deadly cargo.  On the surface of Core laser batteries act as
point defence weapons attacking the incoming projectiles, but unbeknownst to
them, they are playing right into Dulinor's hands...

For the projectiles are hundreds of millions of tons of aerosol deoderant cans!
The lasers hit the cans breaking them open releasing the cloroflorocarbons into
space.  But the cloud still has the momentum of the ship, and some cans still
get through and burn up in the outer atmosphere!

Core's ozone layer is GONE!  Sun tan lotion prices skyrocket!  Panic ensues as
crowds fight over the last few drops of Sun block 50 million!  Within a few
days every one on Core has a leathal case of skin cancer.  Dermatologists
are overwhelmed!  Riots ensue, and every one dies horribly just a few meters
from the last dermotology clinic still accepting outpatients.

Meanwhile, Dulinor's sector is in ruins.  It took the entire sector's supply of
deoderant to supply that assault.  Dulinor's worlds die of environmental
damage caused by excessive body oder.

Scott Kellogg

Hey!  Say what you like, but it's more plausible than a killer virus :-)

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3584
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: After Hard Times
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 92 20:32:25 MET

Steve Higginbotham writes:
>
>Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:
>
>>One danger, that Hard Times does _not_ address, is the possibility that
>>all these new polities will war with each other over trade planets. I
>>believe that there would be a lot more new polities in 1128 than Hard
>>Times thinks; I also believe that a number of them will have succumbed to
>>neighbours within a decade. But there will also be a lot that survives.
>
>I am forced to agree, more or less.
>[...] There should be long term warfare in the
>Former Imperium between the various polities and their various Leaders.
>
>BUT...
>
>We really should keep in mind those "Safe Areas".  They are already
>larger, stronger, and more industrialized than any polity is likely to
>be in the next few years.  Now that the shooting has stopped, they
>should start re-expanding into the void within a few years at most.
>[...] Norris, Vland, Margaret, possibly Dulinor should be pushing their
>borders back well before 1130.

And Antares. How the h... did Antares get in the same sorry
state as the rest of the factions? Didn't they get an alliance
with the Julian League? Especially hard to understand is the
Frontier and Wilds areas _between_ Antares and the League. Even
if Lucan kicked the shit out of the spinward part of Antares,
surely the coreward part would be protected by the League?

>Unfortunately, they are all going to run into the Solomani Confederation
>pushing IT'S borders back.  I suspect, in the long run, that the Former
>Iperium will become the Rule of Man (again!) with government on Terra.

They do have their internal squabbles which might prevent that.
Here is my bid for a possible developement:

The Solomani Confederation will steamroller out over all the former
Solomani Autonomous Region. It's only a matter of time. The heoric
defenders of Diaspora and Old Expanses may have stopped the initial
Solomani fleets, but the Confederation can produce more. But then
Confederation expansion will slow or even halt. There are factions
who will not want the Confederation to continue, and there are areas
like Vega that will be very hard to assimilate (It's my belief that
Terra itself could be a problem for another two generations). And
there'll alway be a big slice of the Confederation fleet tied down
guarding the Hierate border.

In the rest of the former Imperium the Safes will consolidate while
small polities will mushroom in the Outlands and the Wilds. Once
consolidated the Safes will try to reexpand, but no faction will
have the strength to do so solely by conquest. Think 17th Century.
The Great Powers will conquer some individual worlds and polities;
others will be bribed, threathend or cajoled into giving trade
concessions, allowing factories, outposts and colonies. The strongest
polities will be worth helping just to prevent another Great Power
from gaining it. And what one Power gains another will try to take
from it. Alliances will shift between Powers. Daibei and Delphi may
war over control of Massila, but they will ally against Confederation
or Core meddling. Some polities may even grow big enough to rival the
smaller Great Powers, or they may form Confederations of their own.

All in all it could be a very exiting time to adventure in. But it
will not be a second Long Night.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
*****************

